Such a BEAUTIFUL shade of grey! (or, favorite ambiguous characters)

Cafe Society
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Skald the Rhymer, may I first say that you come up with such interesting topics!

I thought of Tim Dorsey’s Serge A. Storms. Why? He’s “crazy and dangerous, but who else can you trust”, to borrow a phrase from a Jimmy Buffett song.

When we meet Serge in the first novel (and I believe it’s Florida Roadkill, but don’t hold my feet to the fire on that), he is responsible for killing a lot of people to serve his own purposes with the blasé attitude of a kid stomping on ants in the yard. But in the latest (Torpedo Juice, which I’m still in), he bursts in on a scene where a junkie is assaulting & robbing an elderly couple at a motel, and apprehends the perpetrator because he doesn’t want these tourists to think that this is what Florida is about. He then proceeds to dispatch the scumbag in a particularly creative and cruel manner.

He is as likely to do something for sheer mercenary reasons as altruistic ones - but either way, someone usually gets hurt. Sometimes it’s the “bad guys”, and sometimes it’s innocent bystanders.

Either way, he’s certifiably insane, but refuses to take his meds, tends to hang out with people with outrageous appetites for addictive substances, and doesn’t recognize anyone as being either better or worse than himself. In fact, he barely recognizes anyone as an individual at all. He’s very wrapped up in his own world, and it’s not a boring one. His one constant motivator is his obsession with Florida history, which figures strongly in nearly all of his capers.

Sometimes he’s a criminal, and sometimes he’s just an antihero. But there’s something likeable about him. He’s always in a jolly mood, never gets discouraged, and has so much nervous energy he can’t sit still for more than a minute.

Why read about him? What can I say - it’s just so much fun to see what will happen next.

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Vic Mackey on The Shield. He shot a cop. He blackmails drug dealers. He steals money from Russian crooks.

He also tries to get pregnant hooker clean and sober, puts her up in an apartment. He is a force of nature whenever a child or a woman is in danger. He tries to be a good father to his daugher and autistic son (treating the autism is part of the reason he needs the money that he steals from the criminals.)

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Scarlett O’Hara, as portrayed by Vivien Leigh in Gone with the Wind, makes me want to hug her and smack her at the same time. Scarlett is a gutsy, bold, outspoken person, which I like. She is also a bossy, spiteful, elitist person, which I don’t like.

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[QUOTE=Sampiro]
Hannibal Lecter, of course- he’s a coldblooded killer but he’s suave, charming, funny and unless he needs to make a getaway only kills the rude, and what’s wrong with that?

[/quote]

What’s wrong with that?

Spoilers for Hannibal (the book)

He brainwashed and raped Clarice Starling, that’s what’s wrong with that.

Hannibal isn’t ambiguous. Hannibal needs killing.

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[QUOTE=Bosda Di’Chi of Tricor]
Destro and The Baroness .

They are the perfect Evil couple, and madly in love with each other. Completely mutually devoted. Each willing to sacrifice themselves to save their partner. And Destro has a strictly adhered-to code of honor. The Baroness’ courage & intelligence are amazing.

I’ve got a lot of the romantic in me, so I find myself hoping things work out well for them.

And then, I realize that they’re trying to take over the World as International Supervillains.
[/QUOTE]

The Baroness, maybe, but I don’t think Destro has much interest in actually ruling the world (except for that one lapse in the MASS affair). He’s more interested in selling his weapons. But I agree that he’s utterly honorable, and I think the Joes would too.

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[QUOTE=YaWanna]
Skald the Rhymer, may I first say that you come up with such interesting topics!

[/quote]

Many thanks.

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Here’re my three characters who all appear in the same movie.

Clint Eastwood as ‘Bill’ Munny, Gene Hackman as Little Bill Daggett, and Morgan Freeman as Ned Logan, all from Unforgiven. Whores hire killers to avenge a fellow prostitute, slashed in the face by a john. Eastwood plays the terrible Bill Munny, former killer turned (widowed) family man who tries to put a violent bloody past and terrible ways behind him, but decides to take the job. His equally cold-blooded partner Ned Logan (Freeman) is coaxed out from a peaceful semi-retirement, ambivalently, for one last awful hurrah. Gene Hackman portrays the deeply flawed sheriff Little Bill, who tries to do good with forceful aggression and sometimes apalling judgment. Hackman reportedly based his character on then-LAPD chief Daryl Gates. Terrific movie with a fantastic ending from three charismatic actors at the tops of the game showing how the grays in any character can extend to rich blacks and omnious whites.

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[QUOTE=Askia]
Here’re my three characters who all appear in the same movie.

Clint Eastwood as ‘Bill’ Munny, Gene Hackman as Little Bill Daggett, and Morgan Freeman as Ned Logan, all from Unforgiven. Whores hire killers to avenge a fellow prostitute, slashed in the face by a john. Eastwood plays the terrible Bill Munny, former killer turned (widowed) family man who tries to put a violent bloody past and terrible ways behind him, but decides to take the job. His equally cold-blooded partner Ned Logan (Freeman) is coaxed out from a peaceful semi-retirement, ambivalently, for one last awful hurrah. Gene Hackman portrays the deeply flawed sheriff Little Bill, who tries to do good with forceful aggression and sometimes apalling judgment. Hackman reportedly based his character on then-LAPD chief Daryl Gates. Terrific movie with a fantastic ending from three charismatic actors at the tops of the game showing how the grays in any character can extend to rich blacks and omnious whites.
[/QUOTE]

If this were a contest and the prize were the pie I brought back them me to the thread, you’d have swimming in meringue. But alas there is no contest, and the pie has been eaten.

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I love ambiguous and conflicted characters. They are far more real and interesting. One of my favorites from scifi fiction is Andrej Koscuisko, surgeon and torturer, compassionate healer and sexual sadist. read more about him

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[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
If this were a contest and the prize were the pie I brought back them me to the thread, you’d have swimming in meringue. But alas there is no contest, and the pie has been eaten.
[/QUOTE]
That’s a damn shame. I do enjoy a piece of… pie.

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[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
What’s wrong with that?

Spoilers for Hannibal (the book)

He brainwashed and raped Clarice Starling, that’s what’s wrong with that.

Hannibal isn’t ambiguous. Hannibal needs killing.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed, totally. Hannibal is a likeable evil character, but this means nothing: Satan is a likeable evil character. Hannibal is so consumed with mindless, petty evil (remember the cruel fate of the guards is Silence of the Lambs, or the nurse who took off his facemask- whose tongue Hannibal ate for no other reason than that he could. Hannibal is practically the definition of motiveless malignancy, pure evil.

A few more: Aaron in Titus Andronicus (guess which little-known Shakespeare play I saw recently); he gets the Queen of the Goth’s sons to rape Lavinia (Titus’ daughter), then cut off her hands and her tongue, to secure his own position in the court and hurt Titus; yet he shares great concern over his infant son (even when he kills two innocent women to protect him), even sacrificing his own life to save the child.

Claudius in Hamlet; a good king to Denmark, a loving husband and father, and even something of a sympathetic character, when he explains that his love for the Queen drove him to fratricide; yet he is the villain of the piece, in the end.

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[QUOTE=pinkfreud]
Scarlett O’Hara, as portrayed by Vivien Leigh in Gone with the Wind, makes me want to hug her and smack her at the same time. Scarlett is a gutsy, bold, outspoken person, which I like. She is also a bossy, spiteful, elitist person, which I don’t like.
[/QUOTE]

I came in this thread to mention Miss Scarlett! She is a perfect example. She is a shameless flirt, yet deeply loves Ashley. She is incredibly selfish, yet takes care of everyone around her, including her family and Melanie and Ashley and basically everyone except Rhett. She steals her sister’s fiance, but does it in order to ensure the survival of her family. She is quite simple with regards to politics and social matters, yet incredibly intelligent when it comes to money or business. She loves Tara with an intensity that is either incredibly noble or incredibly irrational. She uses Rhett to get what she wants, but ends up falling in love with him. She is both the hero and the villain!

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[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
What’s wrong with that?

Spoilers for Hannibal (the book)

He brainwashed and raped Clarice Starling, that’s what’s wrong with that.

Hannibal isn’t ambiguous. Hannibal needs killing.
[/QUOTE]

Oh, like you’ve never once dug up the bones of the dead father to impress someone you had a crush on who wouldn’t give you the time of day. C’mon, we all have. Let he who is without sin cast the first fava bean.

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[QUOTE=Ghanima]
I came in this thread to mention Miss Scarlett! She is a perfect example. She is a shameless flirt, yet deeply loves Ashley. She is incredibly selfish, yet takes care of everyone around her, including her family and Melanie and Ashley and basically everyone except Rhett. She steals her sister’s fiance, but does it in order to ensure the survival of her family. She is quite simple with regards to politics and social matters, yet incredibly intelligent when it comes to money or business. She loves Tara with an intensity that is either incredibly noble or incredibly irrational. She uses Rhett to get what she wants, but ends up falling in love with him. She is both the hero and the villain!
[/QUOTE]

Rhett is quite similar: He consorts with hooker, yet deeply loves Scarlett. He takes care of himself, yet supports his family after his father dies and becomes a devoted husband & father, and even gives Ashley the money to buy Scarlett’s mills so he can support his own wife and child. He takes care of his illegatimate son’s mother (Belle) by setting her up in a whorehouse, and lends Scarlett the money so she can buy the mills. He is incredibly masculine, yet takes care of his daughter and knows fashion inside and out. He loves Scarlett with an intensity that is either incredibly noble or incredibly irrational. He gets kicked out of the Old South, but suppots it as a blockader and later as a soldier. He uses people to get what he wants, yet ends up falling in love with the Old South. He is both a hero and a villian.

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I think Gaius Balthar from the 21st century version of Battlestar Galactica fits this bill.

What makes him the perfect shade of grey is he really is not on anyone’s side but his own. He’ll manipulate the Cylons or the humans to better his circumstances; he doesn’t seem to care about the consequences.

(How I miss this show!!! October is a long way off…)

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Jayne Cobb on Firefly. I’ve always found it odd that fans have so much love for the guy who, while not as merciless as Saffron, and not as sadistic as Niska, handed over the crew to the Alliance, purely for the money. Sure, he got busted, and sure Mal talked to him using real strong words, but knowing that Jayne would turn any offering of a few bucks into “a pretty interesting day” makes the whole “I was aiming for his head” and the goofy hat a little less cute. IMHO.

And in the same vein, Mal is obviously a risk-taker, but with three betrayals of his crew in a fourteen episode series (Out of Gas, Ariel, and the pilot)? Ditch him!

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[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
Some people like their heroes like their milk and their villains like their coal: pure and white in the former case, pure and black in the latter.
[/QUOTE]
Hmm. I am definitely an absolute thinker like this, and came to an uncomfortable conclusion within the past decade or so. You see, I grew up reading Jane Austen and I just assumed that she was on the side of her main characters, that what they did was right and fine. Little did I know that she was also making fun of them and teasing them for their faults. This sounds obvious to anyone who doesn’t see in black and white, but I thought her spending that much time with a heroine meant the heroine was the “best” character in the book.

So anyway, Emma for having her blind spots and being a meddler but also wanting the happiness of those around her.

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[QUOTE=Skald the Rhymer]
The Baroness, maybe, but I don’t think Destro has much interest in actually ruling the world (except for that one lapse in the MASS affair). He’s more interested in selling his weapons. But I agree that he’s utterly honorable, and I think the Joes would too.
[/QUOTE]

I agree. The Baroness is a facist terrorist whore but she does love Destro and he loves her. Destro has that mythic villain code of honor down pat. Its against his interest for there to be one world power even if it is Cobra. He needs the conflict for his business.

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[QUOTE=teela brown]
William Makepeace Thackeray was a master of creating ambiguous characters who were capable of alternately doing Very Good Things and Very Bad Things. I like to read him as a bit of a relief from Dickens, whose characters were usually all white or all black.

Vanity Fair:

Becky Sharp, a relentless, selfish social climber who was also clever, good-humored, and talented.

Rawdon Crawley, a sometimes brutal dufus who nevertheless honestly loved Becky and his son.

Pitt Crawley, a pompous, self-absorbed country wannabe clergyman, who also restored the good name of his estate and helped his poor tenants.

Pendennis:

Colonel Pendennis, a selfish, worldly, ambitious social climber who also helped his nephew avoid a stupid disastrous marriage and helped a poor woman shake off a merciless loan shark (his former valet).

Mother Pendennis, a loving, supportive selfless mom who also was so sexually jealous about her son that she treated her son’s saviour girlfriend like trash because she assumed the two may have had sex.

The list goes on and on, showing Thackeray’s deep understanding of the duality of the human character. Love that guy!
[/QUOTE]

Barry Lyndon:

Barry (this comes across much more clearly in the book than the Kubrick film) is a total bastard. He is greedy, vain, arrogant, a bully when he can be, often cruel, a user of others. When he finally attains wealth, he wastes it extravagantly. He makes his wife miserable. Yet he is a Real Man. A man you would want on your side. He has a boundless sense of humor and, for the most part, a refreshingly practical attitude to life. He really is, as he often describes himself, “extraordinarily brave, handsome and clever.” His superiors in the Prusssian army acknowledge he is the bravest, fiercest soldier in his unit – but still won’t promote him, because he spends all his off-duty time roistering and getting drunk. His conception of himself as a gentleman and his notion of “honour” always lead him to live in as grand a style as he can, and sometimes, to do selfless favours for his friends. Barry Lyndon stands for all the worst and best features of the old landowning gentry class that, in Thackeray’s time, was beginning to be supplanted in power by the merchants and industrialists. He is aware of this, as he writes his memoirs, and laments the “merry” bygone age and decries the “merchants’ cant” that now rules society. His story has a rich pathos to it. When we read historical novels, don’t we always want to identify with the grand, violent aristocrats rather than the greasy-souled, practical merchants?

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[QUOTE=Malacandra]
Tarl Cabot. Cheerfully enslaves any woman who looks at him in a funny way - but puts his life on the line time and time again to save anything from a city to the entire world.
[/QUOTE]
A world which shouldn’t be saved, with only 2 kinds of people on it; victims and monsters. He’s a pitch black villain, and Gor really ought to get a visit from the Death Star. And that’s being kind.

Jeane-Claude the vampire from the Anita Blake book. He’s as ruthless as necessary to maintain his “life” and position, but looks after his people and avoids causing any harm he can avoid.

The protagonist from The Man Who Used the Universe. A ruthless, near emotionless man who traumatized in childhood, has only one goal - to never be controlled by anyone. A genius level manipulator, he warps two civilizations to his purpose, and orchestrates the future conquest of a third. In the process he makes life better for most people, ends a cold war between humans and the Nuel, gets them to ally against an enemy race, and becomes regarded as a hero of godlike stature. And in the end, it’s all nothing but an attempt to put himself in an unassailable position of independence.