suicide...the hard way!

Factual Questions
41

Piece said:

A few quotes:

“Signs and symptoms of a human bite may include: a surface skin break with or without bleeding bruising a puncture-type wound injury to deeper tissue, including a major cut or crushing injury infection”

“Steve Branch was bitten repeatedly about the face, with deep, tearing bites that left behind lacerations and poor detail. “

“We took pictures of the wounds. They were deep." Bell said”

“To treat a human bite, a person should:
wash his or her hands thoroughly with soap and water. control severe bleeding by applying first aid. This can be done by applying direct pressure with a clean, dry cloth. A person can also elevate the area or apply cool compresses."

“Mike Tyson and ears.”

None of this sounds like they’re talking about superficial skin wounds.

Piece also said:

A few more quotes.

“tetanus spores may be introduced into the body, through a puncture wound contaminated
with soil, street dust, animal feces, injected contaminated street drugs “
I wasn’t aware tetanus was considered a local infection.

“Metronidazole - Acts by directly damaging the structure of the DNA of the bacteria/protozoa. Drug of choice for anaerobic infection. Should be used with another broad spectrum AB in any one with possible fecal contamination of a wound or intra-abdominal sepsis"
So we treat boils with two types of antibiotics, and consider them as serious as a free infection within he abdominal cavity.

“Also by facultative gram negative bacteria such as E coli, Proteus, Enterobacter, and Klebsiella due to fecal contamination of wounds”
Enterobacter and Klebsiella as strictly local infections?

“Wounds contaminated with human or animal fecal material should be considered at great risk of developing a wound infection. It has been estimated that 20-30% or the net weight of stool is bacterial mass, the majority of which are anaerobic.”
Nuff said.

Piece went on to get his hat trick with:

“The first real test for the Florey lab came when Albert Alexander, a 48 year old London policeman had nicked himself while shaving. It was only a minor cut and was ignored for several days, but this would have a major impact on medical history. After a time, the Alexander’s face became swollen and infected and developed a temperature that rose to 105F. The minor cut had developed septicaemia. “
Doesn’t sound like the wound leading to this one involved deep blood vessels.

“Streptococcus pyogenes (click for review) includes particularly virulent strains which produce a highly invasive necrotizing fasciitis due to pyrogenic exotoxin A and proteolytic exotoxin B. Such an infection can follow surgery, but most cases have begun at the site of minor injuries. The fast tissue destruction and shock can lead to amputation or death."
This doesn’t sound deep either.

“Microorganisms (germs) may contaminate all open wounds, either from the wounding source, from the air, or from your breathing or your fingers. Bleeding flushes some particles of dirt away. Germs that remain may be killed by the body’s cells or alternatively, may multiply and spread infection through the body (septicemia).
All wounds, not just the ones exposing deep blood vessels?

Do you actually have anything to back up any of these statements Piece?

42

I’ll try to respond point by point.
I tried to answer the OP, although it was impresise. He said “padded room”; I never did time in “padded cell”, if it was implieed “no windows” in the question, be it. If we agree on “bare hands” means of self destruction, why to introduce “padded room” restriction in the fitst place?
I know about Myke Tyson habbit of biting off opponents ears. It has nothing to do with self inflicted bite wounds. I “never heard” (quotation marks are meant to indicate the conditionality of my statement; I mean to say it must be excedeengly rare, if it exists at all) of deep bite wounds. Even wounds caused by violent assailants on their victims, usually appear as teeth impressions on the skin, sometimes accompanied by superficial blood. Considering the rarity of the event (event ardent suppoters don’t insist that it’s common), I suggest they back up their assertions with appropriate data. In all fairness, guys, you understand that I can easily find data supportiung cavities, but not deep bite wounds. So, if one insist that self eating is possible, I’d like to see any support. Otherwise, all kind of claims can be made, as long as the do not violate the basic laws of nature.
I already aknowledged that water/food self deprivation can lead to death. I do not want to start a new discussion regarding “normalcy” of these people. They do not come often.
About infecting wounds. Watch the relevance of your examples. All examples given included foreign microflora (e.g., from soil). Your own feces just came from you and, although they defininety contain harmful (pathlogic) flora, not intended to be in the bloodstream (none is “intended”), it does not contain extremely pathogenic bacteria, like these present in the soil.
We (I) do not know much about Mr. Alexander: how deep was his “nick” ( or even what was it done with, a Gilette-type razor or a blade), how clean was he personally, what kind of immunodefociency, if any, he had, what kind of infection developped, etc.
Besides, a bitten wound, while definitely can be infected, initially is pretty clean, as saliva posesses antiseptic qualities.
Qo: Enterobacter and Klebsiella as strictly local infections?
Wrong question. Almost any infection, from TB (Mycobacterium spp.) to E.coli, can be local (abscess) or systemic. It depends on many factors. The details are beyond the scope of this MB, read textbooks first.
In general, I’m saying that it probably nearly impossible to kill self. Even if one succeds in gnawing a deep wound, one should keep it “open”, i.e. prevent blood coagulation and healing till he shits (not easily done on demand!), then wait till the sepsis takes place (if). So, the bottom line: even if possible, it’s long and hard. Consider alternatives (Final Exit).

43

We had this debate back in high school, many years ago. Our conclusions were that the only two ways viable for most people were:

  1. Bite through tongue, then bleed to death, as Revtim suggested. You’d need to really bite hard, using your hands to push your jaws together, so ideally you’d do it in one bite, before you lost your nerve.

  2. Rip out toenail from big toe, fashion into a toothpick-sized tool (using your teeth to bite it), and poke yourself in the corner of your eye, penetrating into the brain. You might have to mush it around a little bit :slight_smile: This seemed a little far-fetched, but got points for inventiveness.

Arjuna34

44

No comment on the other points, but my advice for this issue is to shit first, whenever you get the urge, then go ahead with the gnawing :slight_smile:

Arjuna34

45

all these crazy biting ideas would hurt. wouldn’t you pass out from the pain before finishing the deed? i broke my ankle and it hurt so much i almost blacked out.

46

Arjuna, stick to antennas:
Biting off your tongue (even if you succed; or even if you cut it off with a knife?!) will not, probably, result in your death: the blood will clot (in high school you knew about clotting, just did not think about it; now you can think). In general, to bleed to death, a major artery has to be opened. I doubt, that even a relatively big lingual artery severance (lingual artery supplies blood to the whole tongue and a number of other organs) will result in lethal hemorrhage. Injuries of bigger nearby arteries, for instance, sunmandibular, are usually not lethal.
It is impossible to disassemble a human body. Hair removal is the extend of it. You can grow a long toenail, rip it off (maybe, it is already started to disintegrate spontaneously), but you’ll need about two inch piece to reach the bone in the back of your orbit (the part of the skull where your eyeball sits). You’ll need a several inch long steel piece of antenna to reach inside the brain to vitally inportant parts of the brain. You will loose consciousness before.
In general, it ain’t as simple as radios.

47

I’d hope that most high-schoolers would know something about clotting (we certainly did), otherwise we would have thought that ANY cut would just keep on bleeding until the person died. Obviously we were unqualified to judge just how much clotting would take place, and how a person actively trying to keep their tongue bleeding would affect things. In fact, I’m still not qualified :slight_smile:

Of course the details of the human body (or a single cell for that matter) are far more complex than a radio. Sorry for trying to express thoughts on a subject apparently too complex for my understanding …

Arjuna34

48

Arjuna, probably my ideas about radios and antennas are as ridiculous to you as yours about bodies are to me. Bodies are more complicated than radios. It does not make me more complicated than you. You can express your thoughts about bodies, I can talk about antennas, that’s what this MB is all about. We all have to practice humility, while talking bodies or antennas, that’s all.
I’ll see you on antenna’s thread soon.

Peace

49

Get you arm to fall asleep then “eat” as much of your self as you can before you get the feeling back. This way you can get a large wound with out much pain. Then you could do some jumping jacks to get the blood flowing. You will be dead before you know it.

50

Normally it takes …seconds to get circulation restored. As soon as you stert gnawing, it will “come to” faster.
Next time your arm falls asleep, pinch yourself and see how mach pain you feel.

Peace

51

I have done so before, and as long as the circulation is still cut off, I feel no pain from pinching. And pain usually doesn’t kick in for 30-60 seconds.

I fall asleep on an arm a lot, and can’t get back to sleep until it comes back. And my sitting posture usually results in a leg or calf going numb.

So I doubt you could chomp off a limb without pain in that time, you could certainly take as big and hard a bite as you can out of your inside wrist. That should do the trick.

Or, you could make your arm go to sleep and read my earlier post.

52

Piece you really should re-instate the signature you agreed to use! Do not listen to the man if you want to live healthy lives. In the interest of fighting ignorance and disease I must take exception to two of Piece’s statements.

I can’t let this howler go. In fact it would be dangerous to do so. Since human oral flora harbors more pathogens than that of animals, people bites have a higher incidence of serious infections and complications than most animal bites. Human saliva is not particularly antiseptic. The mouth has some of the highest bacterial counts of the entire body. The human mouth harbors many potential pathogens, both aerobic and anaerobic, and one or more of these are the culprits in most bite wound infections.
Most reports in the recent literature have found Staphylococcus aureus to be the most frequent organism isolated from bite wounds, present in 62 to 80% of wounds.
Bite wounds become infected 15-30% of the time. even when treated. Try these Piece:
http://www.mylifepath.com/article/gale/100274928
http://www.healthsquare.com/mc/fgmc0716.htm
http://www.bcm.tmc.edu/oto/grand/63094.html

“Clostridium tetani is the causative agent of tetanus. The organism is found in soil, especially heavily-manured soils, and in the intestinal tracts and feces of various animals. Carrier rates in humans vary from 0 to 25%, and the organism is thought to be a transient member of the flora whose presence depends upon ingestion”

By what standard of pathogenicity wouldn’t you consider C. tetani to be extremely pathogenic?

“Ebola virus is a level 4 agent that is extremely pathogenic. Some strains of this virus have killed up to 90% of the individuals infected in past outbreaks in Africa. It is spread by contact with all body fluids, including blood, tears, urine and feces.”

By what standards do you not consider the causative agents of tetanus, bubonic plague, typhoid, all the hepatitises and polio not to be extremely pathogenic? What exactly qualifies as ‘extremely pathogenic’ in your book.
My God, this man has implied he was a medical proffesional.
Back to the OP

became

Which is fair enough to ask. So here you go Piece

“Skin cutting and burning, biting off fingertips, even castration and eye enucleation are acts of self-mutilation generally associated with mental illness. “

“This leads to a bizarre impulse for self-mutilation, including very severe biting of the lips and fingers. “

I’d certainly agree it is possible to inflict more than a ‘superficial’ bite wound, and that contaminating an untreated wound with your own feces would probably kill you if left untreated.

53

Gaspode, congratulations! Now you find you own supportive evidence. Your first reference is irrelevant, as it deals with “close fist” injury. It is a wound inflicted by teeth, but not as a result of a bite. Two others are more to the point.
I never said that a bite wound could not be infected. Human saliva is antiseptic. You found the evidence, but did not provide quote. Other SDopers will judge you on that. What I meant is this: whenever I injure my hands and see blood coming out, I suck the wound, before (and if) I apply any further treatment. The sucking is almost instinctive. Incidentally, your own example is a good illustration of my earlier point: the kind of infection (localized, systemic, generalized) depends on many factors. Your Staph. aureus can live in your mouth all your life, can give you local infection or can cause an abscess or sepsis if it infects wounds.

Qu: By what standard of pathogenicity wouldn’t you consider C. tetani to be extremely pathogenic?
Because it proliferates only anaerobically. Blood, even venous, is oxygenated. Clostridium spp. sepsis has not been not described.
[bQo: ]By what standards do you not consider the causative agents of tetanus, bubonic plague, typhoid, all the hepatitises and polio not to be extremely pathogenic? What exactly qualifies as ‘extremely pathogenic’ in your book.**
You forgot Ebola. I “never heard” of any of these diseases to infect by way of bites or self-infection by own feces. Theoretically, hehatites can enter the bloodstream directly, but if you have it already in your own feces ?

Qo:Back to the OP
So, in desperation, well… it is slow, painful, unreliable, gross.

Qo:“Skin cutting and burning, biting off fingertips, even castration and eye enucleation are acts of self-mutilation generally associated with mental illness. “
My point exactly. We agreed that we are “normal”, apart from severe depression.

Qo: I’d certainly agree it is possible to inflict more than a ‘superficial’ bite wound, and that contaminating an untreated wound with your own feces would probably kill you if left untreated.
I would make two corrections, though, before I subscribe:

  1. “… contaminating an untreated or treated wound…”
  2. “possibly kill you” instead of “probably kill you”.
54

I can’t even be bothered arguing with you any more Peice. The facts have been stated and supported. Those who are interested in your twisted ramblings in the vain pursuit of logical conclusions are free to join us in either GD or The Pit.
My new motto: DFTT

Cheerio

55

Actually, Peace, sanity was never a pre-condition of my OP. And the padded room was thrown into the scenario to prevent suggestions of throwing oneself off a cliff, using broken window glass, or other “environmental solutions.”

Alas, I’m predicting most people will abandon reading any more updates to this thread since Peace started foaming at the mouth with ranting, and seemingly desperately incomprehensible, posts.

Unless any better ideas arise, I’m going to stick with variations on my Punji Spike Solution (aka, “rub sh** into your bleeding, gouged eye/gnawed off flesh solution”). I guess the human body was thankfully not engineered with a simple self-destruct mechanism.

56

wait wait!

peepthis, howsabout something along the lines of:

accidental autoerotic asphyxiation as a result of trying to fellate yourself? Just flip your legs over your torso, and stay that way, trying to get at your dude. Perhaps you wouldn’t want your last hours to be with a dick in your mouth, but at least you’d die getting head.

jb

57

I wondered all the time, Peepthis, what prompted you to do your research. May I just suggest that clinical insanity will probally not expand the list much, it will definitely lead to increased blindness, but not death.

Peace

58

Although already mentioned certainly the easiest most reliable way would be to bite off your own tongue.

As for breaking your own neck, it is very difficult to break your own neck with your own hands with a twisting motion. I won’t say it is impossible (but pretty darn close), but such a technique requires a lot more force than the movies would make it appear.

The same is true for crushing your larnyx with a striking blow. It is somewhat difficult to strike yourself with sufficient force, you simply don’t have the angle, although it certainly is more possible (having never actually tried killing myself this way I can’t say for certain) than trying to twist your head off . However, you could use an “eagle claw” technique and physically crush it assuming you could overcome the body’s natural instinct to not do this.

I think there is little doubt that, again assuming you could overcome the instinct of not killing youself, you could cause yourself lethal injury with your teeth.

If you are very flexible you could try kicking yourself in the head to death. Do not try this at home kids.