It is not immoral to end your life when you no longer want to live it. It is immoral to force someone to stay alive that no longer wishes to be. It breaks down as simple as that, for me.
I started a thread once on how to effect self-departure, it was closed down by Gaudere; then I tried one on the merits of self-effected departure, that was also closed down by Gaudere.
After that I started a thread on the Merits of Anal and Oral Sex, it was closed down by Gaudere.
In recent days, I have seen threads on anal sex and homosexuality, and they have not been closed down by Gaudere. I guess Gaudere has broadened her mind about closing down such topics.
I said elsewhere that learning is change; Gaudere has changed, she’s learned some new lessons.
About suicide owing to terminal physical illness or extreme emotional depression, I think the first is all right, but not the second; because the first can’t be remedied, it is as good as death, while the second can be counteracted by drugs and human intervention. I suspect good sex with a very lusciously accommodating partner and winning millions of dollars in the lottery or a stroke of good luck in sudden big, very big, easy money can cure any depths of depression. Try me.
Susma Rio Sep
If this thread is not soon closed down by Gaudere, then I think she’s really changed her attitude about discussing ways and means to effect self-departure and also the philosophy of self-departure.
About the ways and means of self-departure:
First, put your earthly affairs in order. If you owe money, settle it first; then ask forgiveness from all you have offended, and make up for your offenses with them; next, make very clear distributions of your material worth as to whom what will go; finally, pre-arrange the details of your funeral and burial. Wait, very important, prepare foolproof evidence of your self-chosen self-termination so that your family and friends will not be under suspicion of doing you in, like leaving messages about your freely chosen self-departure, and no one is to blame. If you are a member of some bulletin boards, send them messages of your self-effected demise.
Second, the method you choose must be certain, quick, painless, and clean; so that no one will be inconvenienced whether you fail or succeed, meaning keeping you alive should you fail or sweeping up and washing up the mess you make in terminating yourself.
Third, if there is life after death, please contact me, Susma Ri Sep, if you can still communicate notwithstanding your post death status.
About the philosophy of self-departure, for me it’s an exercise of self-determination and self-disposition. You see, we didn’t have any say in coming to this world, and all the details and incidentals thereof; so at least in its exit, we should deserve that every last act of free will and free determination and free disposition. That is the ultimate worth of human freedom; otherwise, even in death we are not free, but a toy of circumstances or the forces of nature.
By the way self-departure for people with terminal illness is an act of altruism in favor of others who are healthy and want to look forward to years of happy life – it makes the competition for survival less of an ordeal, since the number of rivals for scarce resources would be lesser.
Self-departure for people terminally ill saves money and trouble and time for family and friends.
And remember to donate your useful organs or body parts to whomever in need and can profit therefrom.
Susma Rio Sep
Ah, but from view, that isn’t what you are doing. Rather, you are borrowing something on credit and then purposefully wasting it. Not returning it.
Mayhap. The point is that you get to choose to do something five minutes from now to do some good for someone else.
No one contributes some world-altering thing on their own. Its built on many people choosing to do good.
Thats the problem - there is no first or second or thrid in the race, only those who left the field and those who went the mile.
Yes, they can. But no one ever promised the race was going to be fun. They just said there’d be ice cream at the finish line. I can’t order you to finish. I’m just saying dropping out is the path of the coward, of the weak.
I believe the deliberate destruction of a human being to be axiomatically wrong. I know not everyone agrees with me. That doesn’t mean I am wrong.
Diogenes, at the risk of sounding like a Pit thread, your request for a cite in what was obviously a personal opinion and a sastment of my beliefs is rather… odd.
Its when things are down that seperates the strong and the weak. If your not interested in the prize, or even think its a lie, then I think you’re mentally ill and need help. Not that anyone ever listens to me.
" . . . very important, prepare foolproof evidence of your self-chosen self-termination so that your family and friends will not be under suspicion of doing you in, like leaving messages about your freely chosen self-departure, and no one is to blame."
—Or . . . Alternately . . . Pick someone you really hate, and leave a message that they just called, threatening your life . . .
In Amerika at least, we are told in school at least, that the creators of our country at least wrote on paper that they thought citizens of this country should have the RIGHT TO LIFE.
A right is NOT an obligation.
If you have the right to live, you have the right to die. Period.
If you have no right to die, you have no right to life. You have an OBLIGATION to life.
Earlier in this thread is the statement “You do not own your own life.” Uh… ok, then. Whose slave am I? Isn’t slavery illegal in this country?
Not to threadjack, but let’s look at this rationally please.
Consider the right to vote. Many people exercise that right by NOT voting. They decide there is no difference between the candidates, and choose NOT to give either one their support. This is the RIGHT to vote. If you were legally obligated to vote… if soldiers came to your house, put a gun to your head, and say “Support one of our two candidates who are identical”… is this your RIGHT to vote? No, you are being FORCED to.
Similarly, if you cannot end your own life, you do not have a RIGHT to that life. It belongs to someone else… the person keeping it from ending.
The right to something includes the right not to use it. The right to life includes the right to suicide.
Hey, it’s legal over where I am… if you have six months or less left to live.
Ah, but even that right was almost taken away by Asscraft. We all know what is his take take on spiritual implications of the issue. The newly acted Assisted suicide Law in Oregon was the first thing he went after, as soon as he was sworn in as the Attorney General – As if there was nothing more important to do in the country. Then 9/11 came about, and he finally diverted his attention to creating the Patriot Act.
I wouldn’t brag about the survival of the law in Oregon yet. If you think Asscraft has a problem with assisted suicide, you ain’t seen nothing yet. Wait until Dubya plants another one of his reborn buddies in the Supreme Court later this year, or appoints an AG even more religiously zealot than Asscroch.
My life is not some sort of “debt” that I owe to anybody-I don’t remember signing or agreeing to any contract. My life, such as it is, was given to me by the fates(or chance, or goddess or god) to do with what I will, and no outside force holds the deed to it. I may waste it. I may spend it wisely. I may even throw it away.
If there are any obligations I owe, I put them on myself, and only I get to determine what they are and when they are paid off.
My duty is to myself, my life is my own, and if I want to end it for any reason or no reason at all, no other person on Earth has the right to say nay.
I agree with Diogenes, Kalt, and Tekneek. The truly “selfish” act is asking another person to endure a painful existence so that you don’t have to deal with losing him.
The argument that you don’t own your own life makes no sense to me. I can see how a Christian might come to that conclusion, but as a non-Christian, it seems to me that even supposing life is granted by a supreme being, it’s a gift, not a loan. Throwing away a life you don’t want is no more immoral than throwing away an ugly sweater you got for Christmas, IMO.
The problem with this is that normally when you get something on credit you CHOOSE to do so. Life is forced upon us. If some guy showed up at my house and forced me to take a car on credit, I might crash it just despite him for forcing it on me.
I can choose all I want, but life isn’t just about your choices. life is full of everone’s choices. So, a person can choose to be good, and do good things, and those around them can choose to beat them with sticks.
The world is also full of people NOT doing good. It’s easier, and has greater short term rewards.
So what? You’ll have to give some compelling proof that quitting the race has some kind of negative ramifications for the person who quits. And what about those who didn’t want to be in the race in the first place?
Not everyone who runs the race nessessarily get’s ice cream. We have no way of know exactly how many people actually get the prize. If you can show me some stats, that would be great. But if we find out that only 20% of runners get any prize, the incentive to run the race is greatly decreased.
Therein lies the problem. The “prize” is pretty nebulous, to the average Joe. You can’t see it. There aren’t any testimonials from past runners who won the prize. If some guy told me to run around this track will he said to stop, and there was a pretty good chance of all kinds of bad things happening during the run, and that at the end he would give me ice cream (yet there is no ice cream in sight) I am not so sure I would take him up on the offer. Worse yet, if he forced me to run, I would pretty much hate the race.
Mind you, I am somewhat playing devil’s advocet. I think of myself as a Christian, but this issue has always been one that bothered me. God is supposedly meciful, yet forces people to stay in a life they may not be happy with. Sounds like a pretty crappy race, if these are hard and fast rules. Lukily for me, I see God as a bit more forgiving.
My opinion from a Catholic morality viewpoint is that suicide is a special case of homicide. A fully rational person would not do such a thing, but if he did it would be a mortal sin because it would be the taking of a life without remorse or the possibility of reconciliation. Since it is generally done by someone not of sound mind and/or body, the same capacity for sin is not there and a merciful God will take this into account.
[hijack]Which also explains why the Catholics are generally against abortion. But what about capital punishment/death penalty, or pre-emptive strkes, bombing innocent people merely to liberate them or to find some illusive WMDs? I take it those are not special cases of homicide. [/hijack]
Capital punishment is state-sponsred homicide, as is the bombing of the innocents. There is such a thing as a just war, but Bush’s Iraq debacle was not an example. Abortion is more than a small hijack and needs threads of its own.
I can’t even think of a more fundamental right than the right to take your own life. If there is anything I truly own, it is my body. If I choose to destroy it now, that is my business. I don’t think anyone can say “freedom” exists, if we are trapped in this life.
I believe that being unaccepting of the fact that some people do not value life to the extent that society demands is ultimately an unhealthy attitude. No one should be ashamed of the desire to commit suicide. If it can’t be discussed rationally, it will only contribute to the alienation most suicidal undoubtedly experience. In my opinion, forcing life upon those that do not want it will only bring them closer to death. If someone does “catch the bus”, I think we should respect their decision, and be as happy as possible that they have found peace.
by sghoul
From my point of view, you did ask for it. Since from my POV you would not have been able to make a choice if you did not ask for it.
Am Catholic. Suicide is a special case of homicide, as Wake up indicated. regardless, I don’t understand why I have to present proof my axioms are valid, when you do not. How anbout showing us some of your own absolute validation before you demand mine?
by Wake Up Call
All war is bad. Of course, one may not have a real choice in the matter. It sometimes comes down to having to choose between evils of inaction and evils of action. There is the “Just War Doctrine”, but I think that is way outdated, relied too much on a yet-incomplete understanding of nations and states and war, and needs serious revision. In any event, you’ll find the Holy father was rather aginst the Iraq war, although I disagreed with him on that issue.
by MmmDonut
Why should I be happy when I don’t think they’ve found any peace. To misquote Yoda, all you will find is what you take with you.
That’s your moral prerogative. However, just like all moral beliefs, it is not one you can force upon people. No rational argument can be made, to outlaw suicide. Such a prohibition is absurd.
Could you clarify this? It seems like you’re saying people are born because they choose to be.
I am much obliged by the responses to this thread, most notably MSU…food for thought…Mmmmdonut…very interesting…Susma Rio Sep…hmmmm…interesting, yet twisted…need more thoughts on this…Cowgirl, I have given most of my thoughts to you and your friend…I can’t imagine what your buddy must feel… my thoughts and prayers are with your buddy…that is all
One should probably note that the race of life doesn’t have a “finish” line. You don’t go until you finish, you go until you are finished. There is no victory line. No winner’s circle. No final goal to work towards. You just keep going until you stop. It’s pointless to chastise someone for not reaching the finish line when there is none.