I’m an agnostic, and being unsure about the existence of God makes me unsure generally about matters religious.
But what I am not unsure about is the right of a human being to commit suicide. To those who said suicide causes pain to people left behind - I totally agree, it does. I’m of the opinion that the pain caused to others by a suicide and the suicide itself are two different things.
Screw it, I’m not making sense - let’s try again. IMHO, you have the right to commit suicide. However, in doing so, you should be aware that you are causing other people pain. Of course, the problem is that many cases of suicide are because of depression, and a feeling that no-one gives a fuck. In a case like that, a person chooses to commit suicide believing that no-one will be caused any pain because no-one will care, no-one will even noticed. A skewed view, which is why depression is an illness.
Where did I say I wanted to outlaw? What would be the point? To punish people for punishing themselves? No, but I think it should never, ever, be encouraged and that medical personnel should (as they generally are) be legally barred from “helping”.
by Mr2001
More or less. I don’t believe one “existed” as such before one was conceived. Nevertheless, I also believe one chooses to be, at the hands of God. This is qite possible because there is no time as such - it is a passing phenomena of the universe, and will end with the universe. Hence, we are all in fact, alive outside of the universe both “before” and “after” - for there is no such thing.
by PhoenixDragon
Your opinion. I believe that God has givn to each of us our own finish one, if you will. And that, ideally, we would each make every step count until we arrived there. Sadly, men make poorer choices than that.
This paragraph is logical nonsense and completly unsupportable in any case. Prove God exists first, and then you can hypothesize about the “choice” to be born being made outside the space/time continuum.
Actually, you don’t even have to prove that god exists, prove that “life” in any sense, exists outside of the physical body. Prove that human consciousness is present anywhere but the human brain. Prove that a human life has any more innate significance than the life of an ant and we can talk.
A logically invalid conclusion if you think about it. God is omniscient, is he not? So if someone is going to commit suicide he already knows that before he creates them. Ergo, God cannot expect different “finish line” than what he already knows will happen. He can’t draw a line that he knows from the beginning will be impossible to reach.
You arrogant fool. I am not even here to speak to you. In any event, why is it that I, in any way, shape, or form am to be required to prove anything to you? I have utterly no desire to please you. Cease your mind-numbing blather and go post your own damned opinions.
Speaking of which, I am getting pretty damned tired of those ignorant atheists who demand I prove myself at every turn. I neither need nor wan to defend myself from the likes of you.
It isnt logically impossible if you managed to use two brain cells. You argument rests absolutely on the argument that human beings do not make any choices. Try again.
Don’t make assertions in GD if you can’t back them up, and don’t be surprised when your assertions get challenged. This is a debating forum, after all. If you don’t want to defend your arguments, don’t post here.
If you’re going to engage in a debate about the morality of an act, and you’re going to base your argument on unproveble supernatural presumptions, it is only fair to point out that such an argument is completely valueless to anyone who does not share those assumptions.
[quot]**It isnt logically impossible if you managed to use two brain cells. You argument rests absolutely on the argument that human beings do not make any choices. Try again. **
[/QUOTE]
It’s irrelevant in your scenario if humans make the choice or not. God knows what the choice is, therefore it is illogical for him to expect a different outcome.
It seems most of the objections regarding suicide come from the religious folks. Are there any agnostics/athiests that object to depression and/or terminal illness motivated suicide?
Sorry for the late response. I completely forgot about this thread.
Borrowing it on credit from whom? When did I borrow it? Did I choose to do so?
If someone just shoved something in your face and said “here, take this. Now you owe me, but you can pay in installments,” what would your response be? If I didn’t want it, I’d give it back.
A better analogy would be someone who mails you a package with no way to return it, and then starts billing you. I believe that the current law is that the package would belong to me, and I don’t have to pay the sender squat.
But this analogy breaks down, because life is not on credit, and it’s not a loan. My life is the one and only thing in the entire world that is intrinsicly mine.
And what if the thing that I choose to do helps one person, and (without my knowledge) hurts many more? To claim that we should live just in case we do something good ignores the converse. The converse, of course, is that we should all kill ourselves right now, just in case we’re about to do something bad.
But none of the race official promised ice cream. In fact, no one has ever even seen any of these supposed race officials. A bunch of racers just got together, started wondering why the hell they were racing in the first place, and decided that there must be ice cream at the finish line to make the race worth it.
Oh, yeah, if I break my leg and choose to stop running because the blinding, stabbing pain is causing me to vomit and almost pass out when I take as much of a single step, them I’m obviously a weak coward.
Don’t be stupid. Sometimes you have to drop out of the race, because the ice cream that no one can even proove exists just isn’t worth it
It doesn’t mean you are right, either. To claim that someone’s life is not theirs is a slippery slope. What part of my on life should I be able to control? Why?
That’s also when you can seperate the wise from the fools.
I think that if you are so convinced that there’s ice cream that you’ll suffer unimaginable pain to get it, even though no one knows who started the ice cream rumor, even though no one has ever even seen any of the race officials, and even though no one even knows why they’re running in the first place, well, I’d say that you are mentally ill.
Yeah, damn those atheists who want valid reasons for believing extraordinary claims instead of just taking everything you decide to type as complete and utter truth.
I suggest that you try again after looking up the definition of “omniscient”. If God knows everything, then he knows the results of your choices before you make them. Thus, before you even came into existance, He knew at what point you would eventually collapse from exaustion during the race. I guess He set the finish line too far away for some people because He just didn’t want them to have any ice cream for some reason.
I have a question for you; have you ever wanted to commit suicide? Have you had the desire for extended lenghts of time, say, years? If not, how do you feel you are capable of judging whether or not suicide is justifiable? I ask, because I find it very hard to believe that someone who has went through periods of severe depression, combined with suicidal ideation, could have such steadfast beliefs on this subject. Is your religion the only source of your moral objection?
I’m an athiest. I am also the wife of someone who commited suicde. He left 4 notes.
to my mother…Thanks for the push.
to my dad…Thanks for sitting on the fence.
to my son (who was 14 mths old)…a long rambling mostly incoherent apology.
to me…Hope you’re happy now.
The reality was, my mother adored him and never “pushed” him, my dad “sat on the fence” because he also adored him, my son will never see that last note (though i still have it 10 yrs later) and NO I wasn’t happy when he died and am still not happy he died.
He came from a sad (VERY SAD) family history, something he could never get past. The last thing he said to me (no not the note) was “Someone has to stop my families cycle”.
Suicide is THE most awful thing there is. It shows there is no hope. BUT I would never ever ever take away the right of a terminally ill person (no matter what form that illness took) to make that decision. Our lives are our own, if we are lucky they are filled with love, family, health and happiness. If not we may have the opposite.
I DESPISE the fact that my hubby killed himself, I despise that my 11 yr old son never knew his dad, I despise that my first realtionship (serious) since he died has bought back such feelings of helplessness and desperation.
But opposed to all that- what he did was NOT a weak thing and I hate it when people say suicide is weak. I am NOT advocating suicide in any way shape or form…but when people take their lives for medical reasons they are escaping pain that cannot be cured, sometimes those who kill themselves for “non medical” reasons are doing the same thing. I think they are brave (or at least my hubby was reguardless of what many say, I soooooooooooooooooooooo wish he was here and I will never get over his death, but I don’t think his actions were those of a coward) who among us would be willing to see what was on the other side voluntarily. Human instinct screams at us to survive, if we chose not to it is not the action of a coward.
Since I never presented my beliefs as anything but, and was responding to the OP’s desire formy viewpoints on suicide, I have no need to back them up. Moreover, there are a bajilion threads on religion, going back much longer than I have been here? What possible purpose could hashing all that out again serve? No one would be convinced either way. As I said beore (Do you people have clogged ears or something?) I’m getting very irritated when people constantly demand justification from me. This is neither the time nor the place, and I have repeatedly said this is my belief, morons.
So what? Why should you or me or anyone else be given anything? Can you honestly say “I deserve this?” I do not agree with your assessment, because I say that suicide is one of the temptations of evil - a temptation which God will allow a chance to succeed or fail at. he also allows Satan to corrput humankind, knowing that some will fall the predations of the evil one. yet that is always their choice. He has never forced them to do anything.
What I find wrong with your anology is as much your portrayal of suicidal people as God. People do not, in my view, simply run out of steam. They make a choice to give into despair. Does life suck sometimes? Hell yes! I well know that fact. But He never made you pick up the gun and smoke the Colt .45. Indeed, I note that my religion has long been a supporter of those in need of reassurance and love. I do not claim prefection, only the fact that there is choice in EVERYTHING. I refuse to accept that potentially suicidal people are mere puppets of emotion.
Now onto MmmmDonut:
Yes, I have. And I do not really want to discuss the nature and length of my mental distress.
Even if I had not been suicidal at some points, your question betrays a fundamental problem: its kind of too late to discuss the morality of suicide after the fact.
I have no idea what “level” of depression I was at. nevertheless, I made it through partly because of religious belief. Religion is not the sole source of my objection, but others have posted the related ideas about suicide.
However, in short, I consider all forms of killing of human beings to be murder. I will not hypocritically say I do not sometimes advocate the use of lethal violence, but I will not lie and say that it is “right” to do so, except in the sense that the alternative is worse. I also consider the deliberate ending of ones’ own life to be a great evil. As St. Augustine would put it, one is killing an inncocent person.
More directly to the OP, I do not consider most depressions to be a true mental illness. Nevertheless, there are some which are, and I may well be wrong in my prior statement generally. In which case, less guilt may be assigned: those who do not truly understand the implications of their actions cannot be held responsible for the outcome thereof.
I do make a distinction on the basis of sacrifice. For example, there is no evil in martyrdom - refusing to do Evil in order to sustain life is truly a holy act. Likewise, there are stories of wounded men in combat “taking one for the team” and engaging in actions they know will result in their death (barring a miracle) in order to preserve the lives of their comrades.
Interesting premise that-suicide is wrong and should be against the law because it hurts others. Why don’t we outlaw:
Divorce
Bancruptcy
Corporate takeovers that lay off hundreds of workers
Married men that go to strip clubs
Gambling
Drinking
I’m sure y’all can come up with literally thousands of things that hurt others that are currently legal. Suicide, as far as I can figure out, phyically effects only one person. All other effects claimed by other people are emotional reactions to that action, right?
I’m against pretty much all of these on some level or another - but I don’t recall anyone saying it should be against the law. Did I miss something? I can certainly see some societies legally mandating reatment 9assuming they had the wealth to spare) when someone tries to kill themself.
If I’ve been thrown into a life that I didn’t ask for, and if it turns out to be a painful life, and the person who gave it to me knew that it would be painful and forced it on me anyway, then yes, I deserve compensation for my suffering.
That depends on what you mean by “force”. An omniscisnt God will know at exactly what point a person will succumb to evil and decide to commit suicide. If God then chooses to not let the person die of natural causes before that point, then God is knowingly witholding the Divine Ice Cream from that person on purpose.
It depends on the mental state of the person. If the depression is severe enough, then they honestly don’t believe that any other choice exists.
I am a spiritual guy…but I also firmly believe in the right for anyone to end their own suffering from terminal type conditions. I applaud their courage actually!
I do however condemn and hope they rot, people who end their lives simply because they are unhappy, or feel un-appreciated etc… I have no sympathy for them in the least. And the worst is any a** who not only commits suicide, but ensures that the one to find them dead is the ones closest to them…parents letting their kids find them is the WORST.
Hate to break this to you, but all dead people will rot eventually, unless their body is destroyed prior to that process. It matters not whether you wish it to happen, or whether they killed themselves, someone else did, or they died of cancer.
If someone is already dead, I’m pretty sure they aren’t looking for your sympathy. They are dead. Your sympathy might have been useful while they were still alive. Since they are dead, your sympathy would be useless to them.
Why do you think someone would kill themselves in a way that allows those closest to them to find them first?
I other words, you are saying that simply allowing people to do evil things is evil. Sorry, I don’t buy that. I am no more responsible for your or anyone else’s actions than God is. Life is a gift, and its given freely. Eventually, it comes due, and there is no interest demanded on the loan.
I don’t believe anyone ever said life was fair. In fact, you are pretty much getting a great deal here - think of al the things you can do and recieve in your life. Even the meanest (i.e., poorest) life is a vast wealth.
Absolutely, completely, 100% agree. No person, government, or religious entity has any business in deciding whether suicide is right or wrong for any individual person (unless said person has certain obligations, like owing money or having dependent children. And even then, it’s a matter of personal choice.)
Hell, mourning someone’s death is, in general, “only selfish pity,” to quote Dale Earnhardt Jr. two days after his father died. I think a lot of people’s overreaction to death in general (and suicide in particular) comes from one’s own disfunctional fear of mortality, which appears to be pandemic in our culture.
And I know what the nay-sayers are thinking: “You don’t know what it’s like to lose a loved one to suicide. You don’t have the concept.” Well, I’ve heard that before, and until recently, they were right. Then on Dec. 26th, 2001, I did lose a close relative to suicide. And as sad and shocking as it was, I got over it pretty fast, and now I
look around thinking, “…So? What was your point again?”