Supreme Court: Same-sex marriage legal nation wide

I think it would hurt them too, so I almost – almost, mind you – hope they do. But no sense tempting fate since there’s never any telling what the electorate will do once the ballot-box curtains are drawn. I would like to see it die down just like the issue of school segregation did.

I don’t think any candidate, Republican or otherwise, can force the Supreme Court to reconsider an issue. Something tells me reconsidering this decision would be a lengthy process. Roe v. Wade is still here after 40-odd years.

Gays did the smart thing by becoming more open and mainstream, including TV and film having more gay characters on screen (and treating them as normal over time), allowing the average American to get more comfortable with them and see they aren’t the bogeyman. The transgender are starting to do the same thing. Once you bring something out of the shadows and acting normally, people become less afraid of whatever it is

You’re right that there isn’t a slope, but it does open the door for “incestual” marriage, and never mind that there are laws against it; up until 6/26, there were laws against same-sex marriage as well. Maybe I’m missing something, but what is the “problem” with, say, two siblings getting married, other than the result of any offspring between them, but since when is children a necessary consequence of marriage, or, for that matter, marriage a requirement to have children?

If that’s a debate that people in favor of incestuous marriage want to have, then I say let us have it and let the chips fall where they may.

Well, for starters, I would believe it’s the hugely disproportionate amount of people who are homosexual to the amount of people who would want a life-lasting sexual relationship with one of their close relatives.

In fact, there’s been some studies in human psychology that show growing up with, or some other live-in situation with another person not even related to you by blood, will wire your brain to not think of that person in a sexual-partner sort of way. I don’t recall the specifics of the research nor can I provide you with a cite on it at the moment, but I’d take these sorts of things create a fundamental difference between SSM and incestuous marriage.

Which doesn’t really address the point: if two people want to get married regardless of their relations, why stop them? …Lack of movement/momentum on that front at the very least.

Another point being: You only have so many close relatives.

That is, say, a sister and brother fall in love, want to get married and start a family. In all honesty, ask yourself how many times this might (or has) occurred in the real world. While I’m sure it’s not zero, it far fewer than other historically verboten marriages.

Given that, rather than forming a communty of like-minded people, creating a movement and fighting the law to be overturned, most would just move on and find another mate who’s not related to them, and in a MUCH larger pool of acceptable candidates, and still live a happy life.

Homosexuals, OTOH, don’t have anything close to such an alternative. If a woman is only sexually interested in other women, there’s no other pool to draw from.

SSM is a universal problem for the LGBT community. For partakers in incest, it’s by and large a local phenomenon (if consensual) and the available alternative isn’t probably a completely devastating compromise.

Actually, given how marriage has become a joke anymore with “Bridezillas” and these couples who spend thousands on a wedding only to divorce a year later, I could care less.

No really a woman I know got married and had this fabulously expensive wedding mostly because she was jealous her sister just had one and she had 6 bridesmaids who “ta da!” who all got married within 2 years (again, some were out of jealousy) and then divorced a few years later.

It seems so many times nowadays that first marriages are just for practice and after people mature they go out and find a true sole mate.

So yes, I’m becoming a cynic on marriage.

Man, we step out of the country for just a few days and miss all the excitement. This is really, really great news for many of our friends as well as more than a few of my fellow Dopers. Many people here - both non-US expats and Angolan’s - view it as sort of a “duh” moment and wonder what all the fuss is about. I would love to be in a state like Texas or Alabama right now to see all the suffering. :smiley:

Thousands? I thought you were talking about a fabulously expensive wedding.

Tell me about it–I’m out of the country right now, too, so I’m missing my chance to canoe on a river of bigots’ tears back in Texas.

Soul Mate.

But yeah.

Took me three tries. Sure is nice when it works, though. I had no idea.

It’s one thing for the state not to punish people who sin. That’s not the state’s job, anyway (is the consensus modern view). It’s another for the state to allow them to flaunt their sinning.

In other words, if gays want to skulk around the park at night, God can deal with that, but to actually wave it in everyone’s face is unacceptible. We don’t have to prohibit adultery, but we shouldn’t be issuing paramour licenses.

That’s still not an issue of religious freedom, but it’s why same-sex marriage is treated differently from many other sins

Don’t they know that goes against nature?

What sin, exactly?

I agree that you shouldn’t be waving it in everyone’s face, but we might be talking about different things…

Can’t speak for Texas but in PA they have actually been pretty quiet. As they say in the movies “almost too quiet”.

I mean, I don’t agree that there’s any sin involved, I’m trying to look at it from the perspective of people who do.

Every time I read an excerpt from Scalia’s Dissent ( which would be a great band name, BTW ) I hear it in the voice of Eric Cartman.

“(Really? Who ever thought that intimacy and spirituality [whatever that means] were freedoms? And if intimacy is, one would think Freedom of Intimacy is abridged rather than expanded by marriage. Ask the nearest hippie. Expression, sure enough, is a freedom, but anyone in a long-lasting marriage will attest that that happy state constricts, rather than expands, what one can prudently say.)”

My flashback was more to Senator Sam Ervin and his recording or “Zeke and the Snake” ----- but the overall effect is probably the same. :wink:

Here’s a mostly-approving response to the SSM decision by Judge Richard A. Posner, a libertarian, economics-oriented Reagan appointee to the U.S. Court of Appeals in Chicago (spoilered because it’s a little long).

THE CHIEF JUSTICE’S DISSENT IS HEARTLESS
By Judge Richard A. Posner

It was no surprise that the Supreme Court held Friday that there is a constitutional right to same-sex marriage. It is very difficult to distinguish the case from Loving v. Virginia, which in 1967 invalidated state laws forbidding miscegenation. There was, as an economist would say, a “demand” (though rather limited) for biracial marriage, and it was difficult, to say the least, to comprehend why such marriages should be prohibited. In fact the only “ground” for the prohibition was bigotry. The same is true with respect to same-sex marriage. No more than biracial marriage does gay marriage harm people who don’t have or want to have such a marriage. The prohibition of same-sex marriage harms a nontrivial number of American citizens because other Americans disapprove of it though unaffected by it.

John Stuart Mill in On Liberty drew an important distinction between what he called “self-regarding acts” and “other-regarding acts.” The former involves doing things to yourself that don’t harm other people, though they may be self-destructive. The latter involves doing things that do harm other people. He thought that government had no business with the former (and hence—his example—the English had no business concerning themselves with polygamy in Utah, though they hated it). Unless it can be shown that same-sex marriage harms people who are not gay (or who are gay but don’t want to marry), there is no compelling reason for state intervention, and specifically for banning same-sex marriage. The dissenters in Obergefell missed this rather obvious point.

I go further than Mill. I say that gratuitous interference in other people’s lives is bigotry. The fact that it is often religiously motivated does not make it less so. The United States is not a theocracy, and religious disapproval of harmless practices is not a proper basis for prohibiting such practices, especially if the practices are highly valued by their practitioners. Gay couples and the children (mostly straight) that they adopt (or that one of them may have given birth to and the other adopts) derive substantial benefits, both economic and psychological, from marriage. Efforts to deny them those benefits by forbidding same-sex marriage confer no offsetting social benefits—in fact no offsetting benefits at all beyond gratifying feelings of hostility toward gays and lesbians, feelings that feed such assertions as that heterosexual marriage is “degraded” by allowing same-sex couples to “annex” the word marriage to their cohabitation.

Justice Anthony Kennedy’s majority opinion invalidating state laws against same-sex marriage is convincing, though I would have preferred to see it longer on facts and shorter on sonorous quotations from previous Supreme Court decisions. The four dissents strike me as very weak, though I’ll discuss just two of them, beginning with the chief justice’s. On the first page of his opinion, we read that “marriage ‘has existed for millennia and across civilizations,’ ” and “for all those millennia, across all those civilizations, ‘marriage’ referred to only one relationship: the union of a man and a woman.” That’s nonsense; polygamy—the union of one man with more than one woman (sometimes with hundreds of women)—has long been common in many civilizations (let’s not forget Utah) and remains so in much of the vast Muslim world. But later in his opinion the chief justice remembers polygamy and suggests that if gay marriage is allowed, so must be polygamy. He ignores the fact that polygamy imposes real costs, by reducing the number of marriageable women. Suppose a society contains 100 men and 100 women, but the five wealthiest men have a total of 50 wives. That leaves 95 men to compete for only 50 marriageable women.

The chief justice criticizes the majority for “order[ing] the transformation of a social institution that has formed the basis of human society for millennia, for the Kalahari Bushmen and the Han Chinese, the Carthaginians and the Aztecs. Just who do we think we are?” We’re pretty sure we’re not any of the above. And most of us are not convinced that what’s good enough for the Bushmen, the Carthaginians, and the Aztecs should be good enough for us. Ah, the millennia! Ah, the wisdom of ages! How arrogant it would be to think we knew more than the Aztecs—we who don’t even know how to cut a person’s heart out of his chest while’s he still alive, a maneuver they were experts at.

The only effort the chief justice makes to distinguish the Loving case from the same-sex marriage case is that it did not alter “the core structure of marriage as the union between a man and a woman.” But the states that forbade miscegenation considered the prohibition an important part of the core structure of marriage. For they thought part of the core was that marriage be uniracial—that whites must just marry whites and blacks just marry blacks—just as Orthodox Jews believe that the core structure of (their) marriage culture is both spouses subscribe to Orthodox Judaism.

The chief justice worries that the majority opinion has mounted “assaults on the character of fairminded people” who oppose same-sex marriage, by remarking that they impose “ ‘[d]ignitary wounds’ upon their gay and lesbian neighbors.” But of course they do, even if innocently, because a married couple doesn’t appreciate being told that their marriage, though legal, is sinful. That isn’t to say that people are forbidden to oppose same-sex marriage; it is merely to remark on one of the costs of that opposition and one of the reasons to doubt that it should be permitted to express itself in a law forbidding such marriage.

Related to the preceding point, the chief justice’s dissent is heartless. There is of course a long history of persecution of gay people, a history punctuated by such names as Oscar Wilde, Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky, and Alan Turing. Until quite recently, many American gays and lesbians took great pains to conceal their homosexuality in order to avoid discrimination. They value marriage just as straight people do. They want their adopted children to have the psychological and financial advantages of legitimacy. They are hurt by the discrimination that the dissenting justices condone. Prohibiting gay marriage is discrimination.

Justice Samuel Alito’s dissent, to which I turn briefly, ascribes to the states that want to forbid same-sex marriage the desire “to encourage potentially procreative conduct to take place within a lasting unit that has long been thought to provide the best atmosphere for raising children. They thus argue that there are reasonable secular grounds for restricting marriage to opposite-sex couples.” That can’t be right. States that forbid same-sex marriage do not do so in an effort to encourage gays and lesbians to marry people of the opposite sex and thereby procreate. The nation is not suffering from a shortage of children. Sterile people are not forbidden to marry, though by definition they do not procreate. There is no greater reason to forbid gay marriage, which is actually good for children by making the children adopted by gay couples (and there are a great many such children), better off emotionally and fiscally.

Alito says that states that want to prohibit same-sex marriage “worry that by officially abandoning the older understanding, they may contribute to marriage’s further decay.” This doesn’t make sense. Why would straight people marry less and procreate less just because gay people also marry and raise adopted children, who, but for adoption, would languish in foster homes?

He adds: “Today’s decision usurps the constitutional right of the people to decide whether to keep or alter the traditional understanding of marriage.” But why should the people who control a state have the right to deny the right of some of their fellow citizens to marry, without a reason? Alito has no answer.

He deplores the fact that “a bare majority of Justices can invent a new right and impose that right on the rest of the country.” Would he be content had the vote been 6–3 rather than 5–4? I doubt it. And isn’t the history of constitutional law the history of Supreme Court justices, often by a narrow vote, inventing new rights and imposing them on the rest of the country?

*Richard A. Posner is a judge of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit, and a senior lecturer at the University of Chicago Law School.

For more on the judge: Richard Posner - Wikipedia*

I just wanted to share what a happy day this is for my family. My sister and her wife of three years picked up a marriage license today and came over to my house so my husband (who got ordained online a while back) could officiate their legal wedding. :smiley: