I get the playing with the food bit–I completely agree with consequences (within safety limits, of course).
So, does the kids who eats kibble also get the warning and then the removal of privilege or does he get a slap? That’s where I am confused.
I also think that we always have a scale up or down response to kid’s behavior. A child interrupting adults in convo is not treated the same as a child interrupting a pastor mid-sermon, for example. Kid doesn’t really know any different, but the responses are not likely to be the same. In one, most likely, the kid is told to not interrupt, in the other, he may be removed from scene etc. Either way, the child should be told what is expected from him and what the consequences are etc. It is alot harder to describe than to do, frankly!
stranger -great post and ITA. Sometimes natural consequences are the best (again, with that safety caveat).
Context, largely. The assertion was made that parent hitting child = employer hitting employee. Immediately sides were taken on that statement, with the “con” side appearing to be the pro-spanking side. When you stated that adults != children, you appeared to be taking the “con”, and therefore pro-spanking stance. Does that make sense?
I’m not sure what point you’re ultimately driving at here, but if you’re saying that the more unequal relationship makes striking far worse, then I agree.
Agreed, but I think that far less hitting is warranted than we’ve found acceptable in the past.
If I may offer two more anecdotes, then I’m just three away from attaining the exhalted status of “data.”
Anecdote 1: Yet another 3-year-old boy in my life, though this one is far more mature. I was spending a weekend with this kid and his parents last Summer. He was in a cranky mood and not cooperating with anyone, probably due in part to jet lag. At one point Chris hit his father. The exasperated father picked Chris up by the shoulders and plopped him in a chair rather forcefully (but not enough to hurt him). The father raised his voice to him and told him to stop, but wasn’t really sure if disciplining Chris was the right thing to do. Chris yelled “NO!” and hit again. Lessons learned: None.
At another point Chris hit me. I told him point-blank “Chris, please don’t hit me. It makes me sad when you hit me.” He stopped. He knew the score in no uncertain terms. Now, I’m not claiming to be some sort of super parent or anything of the sort, but my girlfriend later told me what I had done right – I didn’t raise my voice, I didn’t threaten Chris, I didn’t act mad, but I made it very clear, in no uncertain terms, that hitting me was unacceptable. And I respected him the whole time. Lessons learned: Children may not know what you’re saying, they may not know why a behavior is wrong, but if you have conviction in your voice, they get it loud and clear.
Anecdote 2: Far be it from me to show any respect or love to any Fox “reality” show, as they all suck ass. However, Nanny 911 is pretty intriguing. Whether this show has any merit whatsoever can be the subject of another thread I suppose, but there was one thing I saw that I really liked.
A kid was an out-of-control monster. He was making death threats against the nanny, for one thing. Hell Child. Psycho in the making. When the nanny finally talked to him in a gentle manner, he was no longer the hellish demon, he was the hurt and misunderstood child. He explained that he hated moving so much (in 8 years the family had moved 4 or 5 times), how he always had to make new friends, how there was no sense of permanence in his life. The nanny commiserated, as she grew up in a similar circumstance. This was a real problem for the child, and yet the parents never knew about it. They had never bothered to ask. In fact, the father assumed he was doing his best because he was always “upgrading” homes, so he could give his family what they deserved. When called on it, he (the father) got very defensive, and complained about how his rotten family didn’t appreciate him. Come to find out, it was all about him, him, him. And the wife was no better. When they both started listening to and respecting their kids, the kids returned the favor. Lesson learned: Oftentimes difficulties in the family start with the parents, and often the parents won’t see their own faults.
This leads me to one last point. A prevailing attitude towards child-rearing is that Children aren’t really people yet, and therefore don’t deserve to be treated as such. And yet they are expected to have the full understanding and responsibilities as adults. This is bass-ackwards. It’s bad parenting. Children are not fully developed. 2-year-olds hit. 5-year-olds spill milk. 14-year-olds rebel. That’s the way they’re wired. You can’t really hold them to a higher standard than that. But they still deserve the respect that any adult deserves. And they respond to it.
That’s truly a sweet story, but… isn’t the moral that children need to be raised with attention and love, and not with constant physical abuse? That is, the precisely same story could be told about a foster mother who (as many in this thread are advocating) used gentle and VERY RARE spanking as a last resort?
As for me, I was spanked a few times when I was very young, only once that I actually remember, and I turned out fine. What? You don’t think I turned out fine? Are you insulting my mother? I’LL KILL YOU ALL!!!
I have reservations about that, but it makes sense to me for two reasons. One, better to have your kid get a serious burn when you’re around than when you’re not. Second, if the point you want to make is that bad actions have bad consequences, you teach it much more directly this way.
I would think that saying “Tommy, NO!”, grabbing him and yanking him back from the path of the speeding Mac truck, then saying in no uncertain terms “You are never ever ever to do that again!” would leave him shaking in his booties. To me it seems far more effective than a swat on the butt. Or at least as effective. But I could be wrong, and I’d like to hear people weigh in on it.
[QUOTE=MaxTheVool]
That’s truly a sweet story, but… isn’t the moral that children need to be raised with attention and love, and not with constant physical abuse? That is, the precisely same story could be told about a foster mother who (as many in this thread are advocating) used gentle and VERY RARE spanking as a last resort?QUOTE]
Yeah, so I was using extremes. So spank me. Nyah!
But subtle shades of grey exist as well. The “gentle and VERY RARE spanking as a last resort” I have little problem with. A lot of parents take it way beyond that, as I’m sure you’ll agree.
Yeah, but that also puts the interpretation in your head and out of my control. Without a massive precursor statement you would’ve made that assumption no matter what I wrote. Perchance you need to stop being so adversarial.
On the semi example, some kids would do well with a stern word and some won’t. There are kids that would think it was funny without a smack on the bum. As I said, this is really a YMMV thing.
Well, I’m not a slapper but in our family a child may receive a swat on the padded bum for open disobedience. That means that once it’s apparent to me that the kid can understand what is expected, after repeated demonstration of what’s acceptable and what’s not, when he gives me the ‘look’ (all parents know the look) and does what he was just told not to do, he will be spanked. I know spanking isn’t the only option, it is, however, the one we’ve chosen for our children until they reach a stage where some other technique is just as effective. (around 3 for my older boy) Before this, they have no concept of privileges. We think ‘time out’ for kids this age is tantamount to cruel isolation (how’s that for loaded language;) ) The absence of a favorite toy is quickly forgotten if it registers at all. They can’t be expected to sit in a chair without physical restraint. We don’t yell or scold much…just the way we are. We find that the measured administration of spankings works very well.
I agree that these levels of severity can be explained to an older child. I still believe they serve only to confuse an 18 month-old who is desparately trying to figure out his world and the basic expectations of the adults around him. They’re like little scientists, constantly running experiments to figure out what happens when they do such and such. After getting the same response to a given situation a number of times, they move on to the next experiment. But if the only lesson they have to learn about ‘no’ and ‘don’t’ is obedience, the learning can happen at an accelerated pace. Words like ‘no’ and ‘don’t’ only become troublesome and confusing when we send mixed messages by enforcing our expectations selectively or on a sliding scale. There is plenty of time for the kid to grasp the nuance of situational morality. For the toddler years, however, I think the main objective should be to make sure the child will respond quickly to your expectations regardless of the inherent danger, since the child can’t be expected to distinguish between ‘don’t do that or you will be killed’ and ‘don’t do that because it will upset someone’.
Me? Adversarial? I simply stated that I understood how someone could interpret what you said the way they did. You asked me how one could come to that conclusion. I explained it.
I meant that my statement indicating that I was on one side or the other. Read at face value, my sentence as briefly written tells you nothing of which side I am on. You instead used context to decide what side you thought I was on.
farmwoman --I think that’s all a matter of degree. I also think that discipline should change as the child develops. Developement is huge in discipline, as it should be.
If the kid is 18 months–the response to his interrupting the sermon is probably going to be laughter on the part of the congregation. I would say that that would hold until about age 5–depending on what he says when he interrupts etc. Certainly, you cannot “prep” an 18 month old for a long church service (say a wedding) but then again, you would bring small, quiet toys and books etc–better yet, get a sitter, if feasible or desired etc.
Why is this starting to sound like how to do oragami, as translated from the Japanese?
Never mind–I am with you most of the way, and I figure we’re not dong too badly as parents! harborwolf – I had the same interp as tdn on first reading.
But I do agree with your (now) understood position: we can appear godlike to kids and as such, we need to use that power sparingly and with much gentleness.
We don’t accord kids much respect at all, despite our incessant emphasis on “youth” today.
Huh? Lessons learned in both situations: none–unless you are leaving out the part where either you or the Dad explained what the consequence of continued bad behaviour would be. What did Chris get loud and clear from the conviction in your voice? If his experience in the past is that someone who says “Please don’t hit me.” will then smack him back if he does it again, he may have already learned that the conviction in your voice meant a spanking was the action that would take place. On the other hand, if he has no experience with being spanked, and Dad says no without a follow up consequence, he had no idea what to expect when you asked him to stop. This doesn’t mean he necessarily stopped in response to what you did; it may merely be lucky timing for you and your anecdote.
You left too much info out for this to illustrate your point. There were many possible consequences to Chris’s actions and we don’t know which one he choose because we don’t know what his options where, what his past experience was, or really anything useful from this anecdote.
(I’m quoting your entire post because all of it is relevant.)
I think that you’re making the mistake of assuming that children are simple stimulus-response systems that can’t think for themselves, in which case you’re not giving them enough credit. While it’s true that kids don’t develop any true empathy until around age 13, I think they know what it means to hurt somebody. And I think they have some capacity to figure things out on their own. You don’t necessarily have to show kids what Hell is like to get them to behave.
But if you want an answer to your question in the way you phrased it, then I would say that Chris and I are buddies. He’s my friend and I’m his. We throw rocks and play trucks and run together. And we both get it that you don’t hurt your buddy. Because if you do then you’re supposed to feel bad. If you want to assign purely stimulus-response motivation to Chris stopping hitting me, he didn’t want to feel bad about hurting hs friend.
I should add that you underestimate the enormous capacity that humans, of any age, have for following orders. I trust I don’t have to Godwinize to give you an extreme example.
And to add to that–why does Might make Right? What does hitting teach except that the more powerful get to do the damage?
Chris, if hit often enough, for enough “infractions” learns that bigger can force smaller to do xyz. Not a lesson I want my kids or any kid to learn.
You say we don’t know enough about Chris’ intentions/options etc–what of the adults in the scenario? We don’t have much to go on there, either. We do know that 3 y/o’s respond to adult approval and also to attention.
Why are motives relevant?
IMO, Chris’ thinking went something like this: **tdn ** is being really serious and using a stern tone of voice with me. He said that he is sad when I hit him. I know what sad is and I don’t like it. I like tdn to be my buddy and play and make me laugh…tdn isn’t smiling and being fun anymore-I’d better stop hitting him. (I think that holding his arms away from you while you say it is also effective).
Could he articulate any of it? No-but just as you claim that we don’t know what goes thru his head, you also cannot claim that this doesn’t go thru his head.
There is yet another solution to the problem–someone needs to pay attention to Chris before he feels the need to get attention by hitting. He may have just gotten carried away in this scenario, but kids often do provoke punishment, just to get attention. Positive or negative, it’s still attention and they need it.
I’ll add part B to this anecdote – at another time (Same day? Different day? I can’t remember), Chris was playing in the sand and dumped a bunch all over me, my snorkel stuff, my book, my towel… And for just a moment I blew up. I didn’t yell or anything, but I reacted much as I might if an adult had done it. “Aw, man!” I said, “Sand in all my stuff! Chris, could you like do that somewhere else?” Then I got over it. It was maybe 15 minutes later that my girlfriend pointed him out to me. He was quietly playing about 15 feet away, pouting, and giving me furtive glances. This was not the look of a kid who was afraid of punishment. This was a look of a kid who was ashamed and who would do anything to win back my approval.
That’s not stimulus-response. That’s real human emotion.
sigh Everytime I think about his little pouty face, I feel a bit guilty myself. Poor kid.
I am reading this and trying to figure out how my four kids were never badly burned or run over by Mac trucks. If you are going to raise a child without spanking them, you have to have a lot of energy and be willing to physically move the child away from the danger. Take the road for instance. If you have told the child to stay away from the road, you have to be there to make sure he does.
I once saw a child open a freezer and get out a popsicle. His mother told him “No popsicles” The child proceeded to open the wrapper. The mother (from the couch) kept telling him “No” even as he ate the popsicle and threw the stick on the floor. He was two. He is now 18 and in jail. If I told my kid ‘no’ the popsicle would never have left the freezer. Reason being that my kid knew I would get off the couch. There was no reason for them to think I might hit them.
I believe any parent that sets themself up as their child’s “buddy” is in for a world of trouble down the road. It’s fine for others, but the parent’s relationship with the child is a decidedly singular one. A child will have plenty of friends in a lifetime, but only two (if they’re lucky) parents.
I think that, when used appropriately, spankings can teach that choices have consequences. It’s the “used appropriately” that seems to be the trouble for most people.
My father tried (briefly, as with all things) to be my buddy after my parents seperated. He now fails to understand why I don’t really think of him as a father, or want to visit him and endure the continuous stream of vitriol from his wife. :rolleyes:
You can be buddies when your kid is grown up and can share experiences on the same level. When they are developing, they need authority and guidance.
First, please keep the snark down. I raised three kids (two of my own and a stepson) to adulthood. I have a 7-month old grandson. I know that kids are smart. Mine are especially smart, and my grandson is the bestest, smartest baby in the world.
I want to know how Chris learned the bolded part of your quote. In your anecdote, you portray Chris picking this up from your tone of voice. You make it sound as if you expected Chris to just get this. Three year old kids do not just get things—they have to be explained. Did you tell him how it made you feel and that if he continued you wouldn’t play anymore—bad action = no play? That’s what I’m getting at here—raising kids takes a lot and you’re acting as if just being a kid’s friend and modeling a certain standard of behaviour will do the job. It won’t.
Again, your anecdote did not illustrate anything to me because the important parts–where Chris learns some shit–are not there. YM Obviously V.
Actually, if we want kids to grow up with a realistic perception of the way the world really works, that seems to be a very good lesson for them to learn.
One might suggest that generally, the proper place for moral lessons is subsequent to the factual ones.
but in our family a child may receive a swat on the padded bum for open disobedience. That means that once it’s apparent to me that the kid can understand what is expected, after repeated demonstration of what’s acceptable and what’s not, when he gives me the ‘look’ (all parents know the look) and does what he was just told not to do, he will be spanked. I know spanking isn’t the only option, it is, however, the one we’ve chosen for our children until they reach a stage where some other technique is just as effective. (around 3 for my older boy) Before this, they have no concept of privileges. We think ‘time out’ for kids this age is tantamount to cruel isolation (how’s that for loaded language;) ) The absence of a favorite toy is quickly forgotten if it registers at all. They can’t be expected to sit in a chair without physical restraint. We don’t yell or scold much…just the way we are. We find that the measured administration of spankings works very well.