Try this:
“I’m sorry that if the US goes down the shitter it will take too many decent people with it. Unfortunately, I can’t save everyone and if you’re one of the unfortunate who can’t escape I’m sorry.”
Rather than ranting about how everyone other than yourself is evil, corrupt, and irredeemable and fuck ‘em all, they deserve to suffer.
But I guess you’re so lacking in empathy and sympathy for others you couldn’t figure that out for yourself.
That’s why I say you’re part of the problem.
I’ll bet they keep building clean energy plants. Perhaps not at quite the rate as before, but what are the alternatives? As it says, it takes years to build a gas turbine or nuke plant and they need the energy much sooner than that. And the way they have their grid isolated from the rest of the country, they can’t import it. Ergo, they’re going to keep putting up wind turbines and solar panels.
ETA: They just won’t get the tax benies, so the power will not be as cheap.
The problem isn’t leaving the US.
The problem is leaving the US and saying those left behind all deserve to live in a dystopian hellscape or deserve death or whatever else is implied by “collapse”.
I’m not angry with you because of this (emphasis added):
Or someone Latino in 2025 deciding living in the US wasn’t a good idea anymore. But I haven’t heard too many of them wishing misery and death on those remaining behind regardless of ethnicity or guilt. Unlike @madmonk28
Oh, I agree it’s happening. Unlike you I don’t automatically assume anyone who isn’t leaving is automatically in denial or complicit. Millions of people can not leave. Just wishing harder isn’t going to change that and it is YOU are in denial about that.
Don’t wait too long - my Russian ancestors didn’t move fast enough. Only about 6 of them made it to the US. Every single other member of the extended family was dead by 1945.
Unfortunately, as I said, despite looking for years now I haven’t found a way to leave the US. Well, OK, I could go to Israel but I think they’re even more oppressive than the US right now and I don’t speak the language. If I was 25 years younger and not a cancer survivor my knowledge of French could get my foot in the door for Canada or possibly even France. Like I said - I’m too old, too sick, and don’t have any money so now no one wants me.
Either I stay and fight (I was not physically able to do this while undergoing chemo) or find a hidey-hole somewhere in US territory, but leaving for elsewhere is not an option for me.
That’s why I said @madmonk28 is part of the problem - they don’t respect peoples’ opposition or innocence. It’s that simple.
As I have not read every post in this thread I can only say I have not seen YOU, @Der_Trihs, make any statement as @madmonk28 has done.
And with that, I will return to discussing leopards eating faces.
I didn’t say that everyone in America is in denial, just the people freaking the fuck out in this thread because they heard an idea they don’t like. Those people are every bit as much faces for leopards as anyone else.
I don’t know-how can you fight?
What do I do? I stand guard against ICE at a local church that caters to minorities every Sunday, ready to bolt the doors and call 911 and local media at a second’s notice. I throw active support, time and money towards my Governor, Tina Kotek, in her fight against Federal fascism. I support a local food pantry when support is being cut back massively. I work for a school system that practically shouts “D.E.I.!” I march, I shout, I support…I actively look for things to do.
Exactly. That poster keeps repeating fascist talking points because they are a fascist. Maybe subtle at first, but how much water does someone need to carry for Trump before we know they’re MAGA?
Best to ignore them and move on. (And my condolences that you can’t ignore them.)
What people would those be?
It’s not me - I made it clear how I felt in that post. Did you bother to read past the first two paragraphs?
Everybody’s cowardly and doing nothing to fight fascism except @madmonk28 who is running away. I’m guessing all this, “it’s your fault you didn’t fight” bullshit is so he can maintain the cognitive dissonance of his actions. You see, he would have stayed and fought if everyone else had. It’s actually everyone else’s fault he didn’t try to stop fascism in America. It’s really just better for all concerned if America collapses… after he gets the fuck out of harm’s way rather than trying to help anyone.
But hey, I actually don’t give a fuck if someone is lucky enough to get out of this country while they can. I have a problem with people saying, “you should do more to defy fascism or else you deserve what you get” without
A) knowing what the fuck I’m actually doing
And
B) doing fuck-all themselves.
This hijack needs to be taken elsewhere.
Cervaise also doesn’t engage in militant doomerism: his actions stem from a deliberate risk assessment. Others in contrast act as follows, especially on twitter-X:
During harrowing times some people become overwhelmed and even lose hope. It’s not a one-way progress. Almost everyone has their moments. But there’s a particular kind of militant doomerism afoot at the moment. Any discussions of next steps in the battle against Trumpism or the preservation of civic democracy, any suggestions or strategies, are met with a chorus of, “don’t you get how it worked under Hitler and Stalin!!?!” Or “don’t you know rules don’t matter to Donald Trump!?!?!”
In a sense, it’s a dialog genetically related to what I called “competitive hyperbole” two days ago. Strategies for the future or even the assumption that there will be a future get shouted down as a hopeless naiveté. And at least within that stream of conversation — which I’m certainly not saying is dominant, but it is there — it leads to the same escalating declarations of dystopia and totalism.
@Czarcasm already answered Q1. I’m skipping Q2. During the 2020 and 2024 elections, I text banked against Trump, sometimes to the point of causing multiple month inflamation issues. But so what? My grandfather left a thriving law practice to fight the Axis. I’ve also researched best ways of financially fighting MAGA (see bluetent.us) and have boosted my charitable setaside by a multiple. Again, so what? It isn’t bankrupting me and I’m not quite pledging my life and fortune. Sacred honor, maybe. Over here, I’ve started this thread: Fighting for the American Democratic Experiment and Against Trump: Practical Steps and Best Practices
When I thought protest would nudge the needle, I protested. Trump’s parade flopped. No Kings Day was a hit. When I thought the Dems needed a nudge, I nudged my elected reps. I read Indivisible’s Guide to fighting Trump. I recommend it, as it is written by former Congressional staffers.
And I’ve been mulling about discussing the benefits of supporting Democratic moderates here. Work in progress.
This is awesome.
For what it’s worth, I never argue with people choosing to emigrate because they believe that the slide toward totalitarian catastrophe is irreversible. They may be right or they may be wrong, but at this point we’d need a crystal ball to know which. Emigrants are facing significant adjustments and generally significant sacrifices, so it stands to reason that they’re going to have a different view of the stakes involved, compared to people who are not emigrating.
I probably could emigrate if I chose, but so far I’m very determinedly in the “stay and fight” camp. Time will tell if that was a wise decision.
(Also for what it’s worth, IIRC madmonk28 was a career servicemember, so it’s not like he’s incapable of putting himself at risk for his country’s sake.)
Somehow this thread has veered into the ‘madmonk28 show’. I don’t believe anyone has implied that they’re not allowed to leave, nor expressed misunderstanding about why they’re leaving. To me, it comes down to that most basic of rules: don’t be a jerk.
We’ve been hearing their views on the evils of the US, and its impending, deserved doom. What a thoughtless, shitty thing to constantly express to one’s supposed community at this dangerous, distressing time.
Sorry to continue the hijack.
As is so often the case, I think you’ve nailed it with this post.
I’d also suggest that there’s a difference between white cis-het politically anonymous successful folks emigrating to preserve their comfort, versus folks who’re members of groups likely to be targeted for expulsion or worse emigrating to preserve their non-imprisonment or maybe even preserve their lives.
As alluded to by others upthread, contrast Jews fleeing Germany in the 1930s with wealthy landowners or merchants decamping to safer countries “for the duration”.
No I wasn’t. I was a career foreign aid worker who specialized in conflict zones. My life’s work was erased by DOGE. I now work for a charity that tries to get rural Americans access to health care. I also have volunteered to be a human shield so that drag performers could enter a venue after the Klan threatened to shoot it up, so those of you accusing me of cowardice are barking up the wrong tree. There are many other flaws to choose from.
I never said that the people in America deserve to live in a dystopian shithole, only that America is a dystopian shithole and that I am planning to emigrate.
Here is what I believe:
My God, have we descended into a pissing contest about who has done more for their country?
It remains, @madmonk28 , that you haven’t shown an iota of sympathy for those who are caught in the dystopia fascist shithole who are unable to leave. No matter what they have done they are guilty, guilty, guilty in your eyes and deserve whatever horrible fate they will meet. Clearly, you have adopted the MAGA attitude that the poor and disabled are in that position due to a personal failing and should be treated the same as actual criminals.
I have even stated that you have omitted an expression of sympathy and yet you continue to shit on the heads of anyone who stays in the US, whether by necessity or by choice and hope of continuing the fight. Thus, I can only conclude you really do despite those you are leaving behind. Based on your own statements the only people you think are blameless are those that flee. I think, however, you will find the stain of being American follows you wherever you try to run.
It’s not about being “triggered” or “complacent” or denying that America is descending into fascism - it is what you have said here, and what you have not said.
No, actually a slim majority of us did not, and even that is only counting the people who bothered to vote. A lesson unlearned from history is that fascists don’t actually need to win a majority in an election to claw their way to power. But in your mind all Americans are equally evil. Perhaps we should take a cue from Netanyahu and simply kill every American, right down to premature infants in incubators. Of course that leaves you a target, but you’ve already stated your intention to run away.
Every nation ever has been “pretty flawed”, don’t know why you think fascism is such an exemplar of that. Plenty of other horrible ways to run a nation.
No one here is “triggered” by what you are saying. I don’t know why you think they are. Unless you’ve locked into the MAGA “technique” of saying something they think is triggering and assuming it it is. Except it isn’t.
Ah, I see - anger and bitterness over a destroyed career. Although you despise me and wish me ill I do in fact have some sympathy for you in that matter. If only you were capable of displaying sympathy for others. Maybe in time, when the pain and anger you are currently experiencing diminish.
Why not stay and continue that work? Or do you so hate the disadvantaged you’d rather see them suffer and die while you run away?
When you say the US should collapse and should do it sooner rather than later then yes, you ARE saying that Americans should live in a dystopian shithole because that is the only outcome of a total collapse.
I don’t blame you for running away from that. What I blame you for is refusal to see the logical outcome of what you desire, and for lacking any sympathy for those left behind who either have been continuing to fight or can’t escape or both.
I’m saying that Americans aren’t as important as all of humanity and that a powerful fascist America is a greater threat than a weak fascist America. If you disagree with that, you really have a weird morality.
I feel bad for Americans trapped, which could be me, I might not get out in time. But I feel bad for the people trapped in dystopian shitholes everywhere. I don’t think America is somehow special and their suffering is more important than the suffering of other people and I’m in no position to stop that suffering except hopefully for me and my wife.
SHUT THE FUCK UP!
…is all I want to say but then discourse tells me “Body is unclear. Is it a complete sentence?”
FUCKING YES!
I keep coming back to this thread hoping for new examples of leopard action, only to be, again, disappointed. Seriously, people, jeez.
That is why, as @commasense said: “It’s only too late if we give up.” even granting that Americans aren’t as important, it does not contradict what me and him are saying.
We have to fight to turn this fascist way of things into weak ones. The weird morality is really to not fight against that.
One thing y’all might find helpful (and which I have just activated) is the board’s temporary ignore feature. I don’t think I need to block @madmonk28 forever, but it’s very clear they’re destroying this thread and I think we could all use a break from them.
So I’d like to encourage everyone to put @madmonk28 on ignore for two weeks since they can’t seem to shut the fuck up and let us have this thread.
But I disagree, I think that in order for America to be fixed it has to be completely torn down and rebuilt. Vibrant societies don’t elect insane fascist game show hosts and winning an election by 51% is not going to fix anything. The sooner that collapse happens, the better for the majority of people including future people born in the US.
But I see that people here want to return to reveling in the suffering of MAGA and not be confronted by the role they played in its creation. So I’m out of this thread.