Taking Tolerance Too Far -- Enabling?

Poly, what a brave and wonderful post.

Snark, things I have said may have confused the issue a bit, but understand that I understand that you have made the choice you feel is right for you, in terms of your behaviour. And, in the end, that’s really the only thing that counts in this situation. No matter how much I worry about the pain I’ve seen you go through on this MB, and about you in general, I still have no right to try and change your mind about what’s right for you.

I guess what I was trying to say in my first post about the OP is what other people have now said far more clearly and eloquently - that no matter how much you encourage your friend to go down that slope, he’s still got to make the decision for himself. If he blames you, because you “told him” to go for it, then he’s copping out. He’s responsible for his own actions, and only he can decide what’s right for him, unless you somehow are exercizing mental control over him at the time. :wink:

[sub]Oh, and Poly? Thanks for getting that darn song stuck in my head! :p[/sub]

Polycarp, thank you for sharing that very personal bit of information. It helps me understand where you’re coming from better. And let me be the first to say that I see nothing wrong with two males (or two females) having a very close personal relationship with each other, with mutual respect and love. It’s the physical act of fornication or adultery that I believe is sinful (though each person must make their own decisions and hold their own views–what am I, the self-appointed sex police?), not intimate friendships with others of the same sex.

This thread has kind of split into two different ones, one dealing with my personal struggles with coming to terms with my sexuality, and the other dealing with the hypothetical question I raised in the OP. I think it’s been made pretty clear that ethically, I must ultimately leave the decision to engage in a harmful activity to the free agency of my friend, rather than trying to force my views on him. I find that this is often my dilemma, walking the fine line between encouraging destructive behavior by my words (or silence), versus trying to unduly influence my friend to come around to my way of thinking. It’s clear: he must make his own choices, regardless of what I say or do.

As for the personal part of this thread, I’m in the process of coming to terms with who I am, and yes, even coming to terms with my sexuality. It is crystal clear to me that God does not approve of homosexual behavior and that He is offended by it. I cannot prove this to anyone else, though. But as I have noted in many other threads, there’s a difference between homosexual feelings and homosexual behavior. God doesn’t condemn me for having these feelings as long as I don’t act upon them.

I’ve experienced persecution and prejudice that were very hurtful to me regarding my sexual orientation. One of my older relatives expressed horror and disgust that people would ever let “one of THEM” [homosexuals] lead a troop of Boy Scouts. As if all of THEM were child molesters or something. Another relative noted that he could spot a “fag” a mile away (which he was apparently mistaken about, since I was considerably closer than a mile away from him, :smiley: ). And the incredible bigotry of many well-meaning but prejudiced people who condemn both the feelings and the behavior associated with homosexuality has not left me unscarred. So I’m not saying that all gays are evil, nor am I saying that their sexual orientation is something to be condemned.

The purpose of this thread was merely to get opinions on how much tolerance is too much tolerance. I think I’ve found the answer, and it’s a difficult one, as circumstances will be different from person to person. The answer is to respectfully discuss the issue, not condemn or enable them, and show love and concern rather than judgment. And if they still choose to engage in homosexual behavior, well, that’s none of my business after I’ve spoken with them about my perspectives. Their free agency must be respected, and that kind of respect has always been hard for me to espouse for some reason.

Okay, I think I’ve dealt with most of the issues raised here, so I’ll post this now before my rambling becomes incoherent. Thanks to those of you who contributed to this thread. :slight_smile:


You know, no one is saying that if you want to be celibate, that’s wrong. If THAT is what YOU personally choose, that’s fine. It’s not for anyone to choose for you.

For the record, I believe God is who invented homosexuality, and it’s just for us humans to become more tolerant and accepting. But I can’t dictate your life for you. Just follow your heart.

Just don’t pretend to be something you’re not, or try to lie to yourself. You seem like a pretty cool, intelligent person and I salute you.

On the hypothetical op: I give my friends advice constantly. If I thought that they were living an immoral life, they’d hear about it.

On the personal crisis: my friend Nick is Extremley gay. Having had a long chat with God, I do not consider this immoral behavior.
     I think that's an important distinction. You're having a deep moral conflict. Don't listen to church leaders. Don't read the Bible. If you want spiritual guidance, go straight to the source. The Bible says that homosexuality is a sin. But what does God say when you ask directly?

I apologize for any sloppiness or rambling. I am very tired and going to sleep right after I post this

A full blown case? Man…
Once you get past slightly gay, I hear there is no going back.

Well, I do think that celibacy is the best thing for me right now. I don’t intend to ever have a sexual relationship with another guy. That just isn’t for me, in spite of the attraction I feel. My guilt would eat me alive! But anyway, for the time being I’ll maintain the status quo and try to be tolerant of others who have the same condition I do. Tolerance is hard for me for some reason, given my upbringing, but it’s getting easier as I have been learning to accept myself as I am. Evergreen’s web site has helped change my perspective a bit.

Thanks for the cyberhug, Guinastasia. Back atcha!

I did not want to post here as I have decided not to encourage someone who imagines wrongly that I care, but I must correct Polycarp’s end of post up therewhere he says "I love you So do a lot of other people, including you-know-who. "
I assume you meant me Poly, and I have to correct you, I do Not love him or even care.
Sorry, but your info was wrong.
You’re not wrong often Polycarp, but I am tired of this person “imagining” and posting that I care. I do not.
No response is necessary.

Okay, vanilla, you win. It’s obvious that this hyere board is not big enough for the two of us, so I’ve come to a decision: I’m leaving. Yes, I’m very much aware that you don’t care for me. I posted that I thought you did ONCE, and you corrected me. I have not posted or imagined that you cared since then. You have made your feelings very, VERY clear in e-mails to me, so I do understand that you no longer want to interact with me.

Adios and best wishes.

vanilla, you’ve made your feelings on the subject of Snark quite clear.

However, I for one found it very clear in Poly’s post that he was referring to God as “you-know-who.” Not you.

Snark, don’t go. She can choose to respond or not; as we’ve said before, you’re not responsible for her, nor she for you. :wink:

Ditto. Don’t let her drive you off. I always enjoy reading your posts. It’s clear that she’s the one with the issues regarding your mutual situation, not you: I found it obvious as well that Poly’s “you-know-who” was God. How many other posters would deliberately confuse themselves with God simply to take yet another nasty cheap-shot at someone? Stick it out: you’re not the one at fault here. Eventually she’ll get bored and go away.


I don’t usually do things like this but …

[kibitzing moderator hat on]






[/kibitzing moderator hat off]

Snark Hunter sez:

Snark, if you don’t want to have sex don’t. Your body, your right.

If you think people shouldn’t fuck (due to their respective plumbing or any other reason), you’re entitled to your opinion.

However, we are so tired of seeing you debating this issue, mostly with yourself. It’s endless mental masturbation, which imho is a sin.

The only person it really matters to is YOU. Setting up these hypothetical situations are a smoke screen for the real issues which revolve around central theme, which is “Snark is a bad person because he wants manlove.”

Why does your dick and what you do with it always have to be the subject of discussion around here? Do it or not, but shut up about it.

Normally I wouldn’t tell somebody in your place to get over yourself but you know your issues and you’re just playing with them and with us. Enough.

This is no longer a subject of debate on this board. Any threads regarding your feelings about homosexuality will be deleted. And you will be banned.

Vanilla: enough already for you too. You and Snark have issues? Take 'em off the board. That’s another subject we’re not having here again. Y’all fight somewhere else.

This is your final warning, both of you.

your humble TubaDiva

Well, Jenny, I guess you can ban my butt, then. Let’s make it official:

vanilla, I love you and always will, but you really need to get over me. Your vehement insistence that you don’t care and that everyone needs to know this fact is only further evidence that you do care. So nyah, nyah, nyah, Rose cares about me! :smiley:

I’ll miss this board terribly, but I’m not going to take that last post lying down. If you’re going to ban people for talking about issues that matter to them, why don’t you ban Esprix for THE EXACT SAME REASON you’re threatening to ban me? Why don’t you make Polycarp stop talking endlessly about Christianity? Make PLDennison stop advocating animal rights! Why, I do believe that fellow is opinionated and often talks about things that interest him, too!

I cheerfully request that my membership on the SDMB be banned forever, and that’s my final answer, Regis. I’ll miss you guys.

And just in case this post wasn’t offensive enough:

Jenny is a doo-doo head, and Cecil sucks eggs!

::My gosh, did I say “doo-doo”???

Ban my butt, please.

God love you, Bill, but you talk about your problems and you never do anything about them. It’s unfair for you to use this board and your friends in your psychodrama.

And you’ve been asked not to fight with Rose on the boards and y’all just can’t seem to stop doing that. That’s another little bit of life’s own theater we can do without.

If the other posters you mentioned did stuff after we asked them not to they’d be gone from here. What makes you think it’s different for you?

I am removing your posting rights, at least for a while. You had your foot out the door anyway, at most I just pushed you.

Wishing you all the best, Bill.

your humble TubaDiva

I wanna… Hang around and watch the climax of this dangling objective as it comes to hardcore brawl.

Move along, folks, nothing left to see here . . . go home, you looky-lous!

your humble TubaDiva
Aw gee, Officer Krupke!

Snark Hunter,
Please consider this advice from a friend, or at least a well-meaning bystander. This board can be a great place for finding out stuff, and having interesting debates and discussions, and even just hanging out. Unfortunately, this board isn’t the best place for therapy. My suggestion would be to talk to your bishop, or find a good therapist, or someone who knows how to help you deal with what you’re feeling. You also might want to consider taking a break from this board for a little while, or at least calming down before you post. I’m just saying this because I’m concerned.


Awww MAN…Tuba never lets us have any fun. :smiley:

Oh my gosh, Poly! *Did * you mean God?
If you did, I thought you would’ve Said God.
If you did, I was mistaken there.
Poly, let us know!
My mistake.
No, no swelled head.
Sorry all.
Off to find an innocuous Wildest Bill thread…

Eutychus, please calm down.
Here please take my offering of an unfrosted brownsugar cinnamon pop tart.