Tales of Graces f

I would dispute that, since I know several people who would like to play them more but don’t have access. The XBox hasn’t gotten JRPG releases very often since the early days (when it absolutely killed on them), so there’s not really a good comparison. It’s being marketed towards XBox owners, so there isn’t exactly a surprise that it’s not selling amongst them. You can’t build a market unless you actually work on building a market.

The PS3 had that handed down to it from ther PS1 and 2. It’s still the worse console.

Airk – fair enough, I was going by intuition from news articles, I didn’t have time to look up any hard numbers when I posted that.

Bandit – Two things, one is that when you knowing people with no access conflicts with market data, then it’s probably the company you keep more than the market (hope that didn’t sound too snarky). There’s always going to be a few is what I’m saying, the question is whether or not “the few” is enough to justify it.

The main problem with “building a market” on a console is that it’s more of a job for the power franchises to do, and then the smaller ones to follow. The really, really big franchises can expect a certain return that makes it worth it to publish on the other console because they’re so popular they know they’ll get their return AND grow the market on that console in the process.

The smaller series are taking a gamble publishing titles that may or may not sell well enough to justify the cost of localization, for the possibility of increasing a market for sequels that may or may not come.

Tales is in the category of small series in the west. Tales is in “experimental, we may or may not localize more” mode right now, they’re not going to blow money making games for a non-installed western audience when they don’t even know good numbers for the installed western audience. Testing the Xbox numbers is a job for your power franchises, and the numbers show that the return is comparatively tiny even for a power game. Tales may come around and do multi-console releases – but not I think until a Final Fantasy or something else really shows that the install base is there to make it worthwhile to spend the costs on cross-platform development.

Oh, also Airk –

What I meant for the west by comparing Graces to Vesperia isn’t “Vesperia’s plot was awesome” necessarily, but the dynamics and morals of the game I think resonated with a Western audience more. The “friendship, love, heart of the cards” stuff is a common thread in anime, but I never really see the “ALL YOU NEED IS TEAMWORK AND YOUR FRIENDS” dynamic as much in America, sure, it’s good for the moral of a couple episodes, or an unspoken implication you can write about for an English essay or two, but it’s distinctly Japanese to really make a plot centered around friendship (for an action medium, it’s different in drama).

Vesperia had a little bit of the teamwork dynamic, but I think Yuri’s lone wolfiness (faux or not), the revenge dynamic, the “punish the unjust” and that sort of thing is something Westerners find to resonate more strongly in a cultural sense (saying nothing of me personally, it’s just something I notice people talk about) than the sort of “harmony between society” or “nakama” angle in Japanese stories.

Again, Vesperia, being a Japanese product ultimately supported the friendship angle as far as the ultimate moral goes, but just the basic plot of Graces is “friendship.” That was the name of the first trailer fer’chrissakes, the first damn LINE in the trailer is “Okay, now everyone put your hand in. From now on, the three of us will always be friends.” Followed by an echo of “we will always be friends.” Followed by “Seven years ago, me, Sophie, and Richard all came to this very spot, and swore a pact of Friendship.”

Vesperia had “for the good of the guild” and “to save the world,” but I mean, the marketing for this game EMBODIES friendship in a way that I think resonates with a culture valuing harmony much more than a culture valuing individuality.

For reference, according to the same source, Tales of Vesperia moved 0.26m in the US, Lost Odyssey 0.42m, and Blue Dragon 0.27m. Not what I’d precisely call strong performances. Admittedly, that’s still better than, say, Atelier Rorona on the PS3 (0.15m) but not better than Valkyria Chronicles (0.62m) which was generally regarded as “underappreciated”. And Lost Odyssey, at least, was pushed pretty hard by MS back in the day. Folks can draw their own conclusions. Though I believe Jragon is right that the existance of JRPG fans that don’t own PS3s does not in any way refute the idea that “most” JRPG fans do own PS3s, particularly if JRPGs are their primary game type (core audience.).

I’m going to be honest and say I really don’t know much of anything about Graces “plot” and how accurately it was portrayed in the trailer - I can easily see everything in the trailer still working perfectly well in the context of a “group of friends band together to save the world” concept (Similar to the final act of ToV where the game pretty much shifted to “I guess we need to save the world from the ancient evil”), so I am trying to avoid drawing particular conclusions about how focused it is or is not on the ‘nakama’ angle.

The dissonance between a “harmony” based culture and an “independance” based culture might very well explain why I thought Vesperia failed so hard on that angle though - Yuri’s life and decisions probably look a lot tougher to the Japanese mind, whereas I just sortof look at it and go “Dunno guys, it looks like Flynn is getting the short end of the stick here.” - because the game only rarely shows the advantages of doing it “Flynn’s way” and even more rarely shows any disadvantages to doing it “Yuri’s way” (“I’m a criminal now, but it doesn’t really seem to bother me, or anyone else, and the only time I ever get punished for anything is before I’ve really done anything wrong.”). I can see someone of the more traditional mindset inferring a lot more into both of those circumstances than I do.

So yeah. The release trailerseems a whole lot less “power of friendship” based plot and a whole lot more “friends band together to save the world/country/whatever”. Looking forward to it, even if it’s not the most imaginative plot in the world. Not really as concerned about the “Japaneseness” of it.

I was just going off what people who played the Japanese version claimed.

I’m not that far in. Well, I’m many hours in, but I haven’t even gotten a party with 6 members yet which puts me in probably the first third of the game. Either way, so far I can certainly see where the “friendship-driven plot” may have come from so far. It could easily change (and if it does, I expect it to revolve around Sophie and/or Richard), but everything major that happens either happens to or happens because of a PC. It definitely feels different from Abyss and Vesperia where a “something” beyond our character’s control is driving the events. Yes, there’s still an element of “outside force” that hits, but it hits directly due to the character’s actions. It’s not like Vesperia where the driving force is that something just HAPPENS to get stolen from the lower quarter and Alexei just so HAPPENS to be evil. It’s not like Abyss where a Seventh Fon Hyperresonance just HAPPENS to occur and Replicas just HAPPEN to screw with everything.

Yeah, you could probably phrase Graces’ plot that way, but the thing that just HAPPENS happened very much as a reaction to, not a precursor to, the main character’s actions. Sure, the other plots grew into that later, but Graces starts off with your characters responsible for everything.

(Prologue and Act I (pre-Strahta arc) Spoilers)

Well, okay, if you want to be fair… The thingy that presumably possessed Richard isn’t exactly a REACTION to their actions, but the point I’m making is that their actions are the reasons it happened in the first place. If they had never snuck out to meed each other, it never would have happened. Compare that to Abyss where the whole Tear/Van/Luke (and even earlier Luke engineering) thing was more random happenstance, or compare it to the Aque Blastia being stolen.

Currently, I’m really liking it. I like all of the characters, even at their most annoying I don’t dislike the characters, I feel like I’m reacting to them as people who are acting that way. The combat is interesting, it seems rather complex, but at the same time, you can get a feel for a new character rather easily. That said, I eventually settled on Pascal who has some really bizarre mechanics (her no cast time artes are ranged, her cast time arts are basically touch range), but it’s really fun to play as.

That said, the combat has a few flaws, everything has five or six weaknesses and every attack has two or three attributes. This leads to it being, well, perhaps not necessary, but prudent to go into the menu several times and try and remember wtf attributes your spells have. There are a ton of attributes, many of my artes have attributes I haven’t even encountered yet. The attributes are bizarre, like “reptile.”

In addition, characters gain titles by the truckloads, it’s begun to slow down, but it gets rather tedious after the end of almost every battle (in the beginning) down to about three or four times an area (later on) to look through your titles for the new one and weigh your options. In addition, the descriptions aren’t really that great, until you learn an arte, you really don’t know what it does. Sure, some you can guess, “Heal” and “Rejuvinate” are kind of self explanatory, but if you’re working towards a new arte with Pascal, all I really know is whether it’s Beta, Mystic, or Alpha. I can’t even sort out whether it’s a buff or an offensive spell. What are its attributes? Is it a forward cast spell like Wind Needle or a glyph like my fire spell? Are its attributes going to be useful in this area? Who knows!?

That said, it’s a very, very fun game and my complains above are only minor, I love the characters and story. I feel bad when the characters feel bad, and happy when they’re happy, the skits are much improved from Vesperia, the end of battle character banter is much improved (seriously, some of them are amazing), and the combat is very fun once you iron out the battle system for your particular character. I’d recommend it, with the caveat that you’ll probably hate it if you dread the idea of going into menus unless you absolutely have to.

I don’t think I’m even as far along as you are, and I don’t feel that this is unusually friendship driven at all; Examples:

Gigantic creepy undead thing just HAPPENS to attack the party in the secret passage

Fendel (Fendelia?) just HAPPENS to attack Lhant. And for all his stupid guilt of “Oh, woe is me, because I was away at the knight Academy, my father DIED!” the fact is that regardless of whether he was at the Academy or not, his father probably STILL would have been killed. Unless he was killed instead, so this isn’t exactly something you can pin on the party either

So, so far, it seems to me that while friendship is clearly a theme, it seems far from the driving force in most of the major events. In fact, while I’m still early on, I feel like the characters are reacting to stuff more than they are driving the plot right now. You are rather further along than I am however.

Combat-wise, I’m still struggling with it a little bit - it’s simple enough at the most basic of levels, but I find myself perplexed as to how I am supposed to maintain anything more than an “Arte->Arte->Arte->Guard” pattern. Every once in a while I seem to get a critical hit that gives me some more CC to work with, but this seems kinda random - even if I fill the “critical gauge” it doesn’t really seem to guarantee anything, so combat ends up feeling kinda weird and stuttery as I have to pause every couple of seconds to guard and recharge CC.

The game definitely seems a little bit overloaded with systems - all the attributes of artes and qualities of gear seem a little bit cumbersome, and I’m definitely struggling with Title Overload, but I think that if I were less compulsive about these things, I could probably mostly ignore attributes, lazy my way through dualization, and just use the “auto assign” function for titles and never worry about those again. :wink:

Edit: Definitely still enjoying the heck out of it though. I’m not even annoyed by any of the voice acting, which is pretty impressive for me. Although now that I think about it, not actually surprising in a Tales game.

Perhaps you’re right. I know that when playing I get the feeling that everything is much more wrapped up in the characters than other Tales games I’ve played. I mean, yeah, the whole “Brave Vesperia” plot was pretty wrapped up in Yuri and Karol’s ass, but I always felt, even from the beginning of the game that getting <Macguffin> or doing <Character Specific Action> was rather incidental to the plot. Sure a lot of stuff happens to the characters, but I get the feeling, and again, perhaps it’s not correct or rational, that the plot and the characters are rather intertwined, as opposed to being interchangeable cogs in the wheel of fate (as much as I like the other characters, I don’t want to give the impression I disliked the other plots or casts).

And as far as I am, I’m sure you can find even more examples of “reactionary plot elements”

Hubert just HAPPENS to get a letter of recall, Cheria just HAPPENS to get caught listening in on Raymond, the Rockgagong just HAPPENS to be temporarily insane in the first time in living memory.

Maybe it’s just better characterization. It may be that I feel the characters are more important because they’re not just “people who, while I like them and think they’re affecting the world, don’t feel are that incredibly important in the grand scheme of things.” It’s entirely possible that the plot isn’t really that new reactionary-wise, I just feel like the characters fit into their roles more tightly.

Significantly further along here now, and really still quite enjoying this game. Liking it a LOT more than Vesperia, overall, though at the moment it doesn’t really compare to Abyss.

I don’t think the plot is overly Japanese in style or theme, but I do think it’s doing a much better job of expressing its theme of friendship than Vesperia did with it’s theme of weird vigilante justice. :wink: Though to say the theme is “friendship” sounds super stupid - really, it’s about what happens when friends change, and no longer act like the person you used to know, or when they find themselves on different sides of a divisive issue. Honestly, this is surprisingly mature, thoughtful stuff.

They do, I think, do a much better job than Vesperia - perhaps on par with Abyss - of actually tying the characters to the events. It’s not just a bunch of people who are saving the world because they can and think they should (ala 3rd act Vesperia.) though perhaps not quite so tightly tethered as Abyss, where things had a deeply personal and direct connection to most of the cast.

Battle system still feels a liiiittle bit clunky, but I have to say, they’ve even one-upped Vesperia in the “lets make each character feel real different.” vein - I truthfully haven’t really figured out how to play Malik or Pascal at all, and my understanding of Hubert seems somewhat shallow. At least I’m finally starting to come to grips with the dualizing system for gear.

Would recommend this game to anyone with the patience to play a long narrative RPG.