Even if that were the case (which I don’t agree with) just how much control should you have over another person’s income? How much do you think a person deserves to keep of what they earn? How much is too much for the govt to take? We already pay about 50%. That is an astronomical number.
And for that matter, just why couldn’t I, theoretically, earn enough money to buy myself a little piece of property, then just raise my own food, trade my goods with my neighbors for what I cannot produce myself, and just live a quiet, isolated life far from the teeming millions? Well, you can’t. You have to pay the govt for the privilige of owning that property. Even though you paid taxes on the money you used to buy it with. You HAVE to generate an income or else the taxman comes and takes your happy little life away.
Oh, I see. You don’t want there to be income or property taxes based on this theoretical (and for 99.99999% of Americans, undesired and unrealistic) situation.
Virtually everyone would still use government services. Are you going to maintain an arsenal to defend yourself? Where is the money for that going to come from if you’re only trading with neighbors? Are you going to maintain and produce every piece of equipment that you use, and thus not use roads? Are you going to go without electricity and phone lines, to avoid using the mail to pay bills (let alone having currency to pay them with)?
If you get hurt, are your neighbors going to take care of you if you’re unable to support yourself anymore? What about when you get too old to work? What about your children – are you going to school them at home, and will they be unable to leave your property? Perhaps your land would be hit with forest fires. Are you going to fight them all alone?
Government is pretty much a requirement because going it alone is just not nearly as practical to work without one. It is in our own best interest to have a government. Don’t like how it’s run? Vote differently, run for office if you can – but don’t be surprised when people laugh at you because of your little scenario about how taxes are such oppression. Welcome to reality – governments need to be paid for. If anything, taxes are too low, not too high.
Taxes are too low? Half my income, if not more? Get serious.
The point of my scenario is that a person cannot choose to live outside the umbrella of govt. It is theoretical, not practical.
"you going to maintain an arsenal to defend yourself? " A rifle and a shotgun are all that are needed for an individual to protect himself. If I didn’t already have them, I could trade for them from the fruits of my land (perhaps fish from my stream, or timber)
"Are you going to maintain and produce every piece of equipment that you use, and thus not use roads? " In this scenario, yes. It is theoretical, afterall. For discussion’s sake think Little House on the Prairie or something similar.
"Are you going to go without electricity and phone lines, to avoid using the mail to pay bills " Yes. These are not necessities of life. I spent an entire summer in the Rockies once without electricity, phones, or the mail. I did catch a ride to town once in a while to get some food. Best summer I ever spent.
"If you get hurt, are your neighbors going to take care of you if you’re unable to support yourself anymore? " If i make a conscious decision to forego the safety net in exchange for freedom, then I would be willing to live with the consequences. If that meant that I ended up dying at some point, then thats life. The point is, that I CHOSE it.
“What about your children – are you going to school them at home” You might have noticed that homeschooling is providing an excellent alternative to the government excuse for education.
You might again take a look at what I have said in previous posts. I have said that I am not opposed to all taxes. I am opposed to my money being wasted by people who have no interest in seeing that it is used wisely.
Well, I admit I grumble about taxes. I think it would be unamerican not to do so. But I pay mine. Not that I actually do them…that’s what accountants are for.
And for the first time in ten years I didn’t have to send a check this year. I finally got the balancing act right.
But, hudley, I think you’re grumbling a bit much. Remember, you’re version of ‘necessity’ is anothers ‘boondoggle’. Keep that in perspective, there.
You gave the government a free (i.e. interest-free) loan. Why do you feel good about that?! As for me, I’m pissed when I get a refund, because I know I’ve just given the (unworthy) government a free loan…
OK, fine, if you want to pick nits on something that is obviously (and was pointed out by myself) a theoretical situation, fine. Call it a lake formed entirely from rainwater. Better yet, I dug it with my own two hands.
As for the Rockies, of course there was a road. However before there was a road, there was likely a game trail or some other pathway nearby that probably would have suited my purpose just fine if it hadn’t been paved over.
What is so hard to grasp about the concept of a person possibly wanting to live outside the system? To rely on his own means for his survival, not dependent on the government? Why must everyone bow down before the Federal and State behemoth for their needs instead of relying on their own abilities? And why should a person who chooses such a solitude be obliged to not only pay for the needs of a person in their own country, but give money to people half a world away because they don’t all live in suburban bliss?
Now’d be the time that I refer you to the RTFirefly Challenge, except I can’t seem to find it using the Search function. (Rufe? Little help?) Anyway, the Challenge was a GD thread from a couple years ago in which our esteemed RTFirefly asked people for evidence that their combined tax rate was as high as 40 percent of their income. Didn’t happen. That being said, I’d like a teensy weensy cite for the proposition that “half, if not more” of your income is being taxed.
I remember seeing that one too. I guess i was too busy that day to respond.
One of the reasons people don’t see how much taxes they are paying is that they don’t always call it a tax, or it is built into the price you pay such as for gas and liquor. Also the fees built into cable tv, telephone, and other stuff all are taxes, but you just see it as part of the bill you pay. 30 cents of a gallon of gas is tax. About half the price of a bottle of bourbon is tax. Often a city or county will have a special tax on restaurants, car rentals, hotels, and other taxes that are directed towards visitors. I really dont have as much a problem with those kind of taxes as they are user fees more than anything else, and to me at least are fair in that you CHOOSE to pay them by choosing to use the product or service.
Some other things to consider: In TN where I live, there is no income tax but almost everything has a sales tax, which runs 8.75 percent. In addition services like phone, cable, and such have other taxes built into them, either as flat fees or a percentage. You have no idea what you are paying in import duties for anything that comes from a foreign country, but those are taxes too. What I am getting at is we are taxed in so many ways from so many directions I doubt anyone really knows how much they pay in taxes.
Another thing I just thought of…do you count what you pay in additional costs for items for the taxes the producers had to pay? In addition to your social security taxes that you pay, your employer pays an additional amount. That goes into the cost of everything you buy. I would argue that yes, you do count them. Were it not for those taxes, you wouldnt be paying as much for the item.
Just doing a little rough calculating based on what I recall as our income last year and taxes we just filed, plus gas and property taxes I can account for 2/3 of the 40 percent easily. I havent even got started with sales tax on food, clothing and the other things we spent our money on last year nor the other sundry taxes I mentioned above. I feel confident thought that were I to take the time (and extra blood pressure meds) I would find that in all taxes in all their forms represent 40% or more of the expenditure of our gross income.
I took Hudley’s comments to be directed at all welfare recipients.
After reading his reply, it’s clear I completely misread his post.
I apologize for the attack upon you.
If I'm reading correctly Hudley is actually saying-
"Why in the hell is this woman getting foodstamps instead of some one who actually needs them?"
and
“Why the hell can food stamps buy lobster but not soap? This government program is completely f*cked up.”
Good point.
If I desired, I could spend the entire months stamps on Russian caviar. OTOH, no toothpaste. A better classification system is needed.
BTW-Thank you to all the taxpayers. Without you I’d be living on a street corner, yelling at pigeons. Seriously, without government programs that you fund, I’d be unable to pay rent, buy food, or get my medications. I may have to change my sig DocCathode-funded by your tax dollars.
here in the state with the only unicameral legislature, we have a constitutionally mandated balanced budget. we have a projected shortfall that needed to be covered.
the governor called for spending cuts. the legislature decided to raise taxes instead we now have a"temporary" 2 1/2% raise in the state income tax, a 1% increase in the state sales tax and a 30 cent a pack tax on cigarettes. the governor vetoed the bill, and the legislature over rode the veto.
the legislature here is 75% republican, as is the governor. the representative from my district was refered to by her opponent as “a typical tax and spend liberal democrat.” she voted no on the tax increase, as did the democrat from the next district west of here.
was it p.j. o’roark that said: “giving government money and power is like giving whiskey and car keys to a teen aged boy?”
DocCathode, apology cheerfully accepted. I will however accept blame for not being more clear in my original post.
The reason we fund our government is to pay for the things that actually benefit the citizens, whether as a whole or as an individual. Unfortunately this has been taken as a license to steal. Until there is accountability at all levels of government bureacracies will always take the easier path of increasing taxes rather than ensuring the quality of expenditures. We are all at fault for allowing it to continue. While we bicker over our “talking points” and caricature our ideological differences to the solutions to our problems, our government can continue waste the dollars that we send to them. Until we can agree that it is not the left/right that is the problem, but the manner in which almost all our elected officials abuse our trust, we deserve what we get, I suppose.
I for one, must admit that while seeing things like the scene I described earlier gets my blood boiling, all the money that is given to individuals pales in comparison to the corporate welfare that is handed out to the associates of our government.
Why exactly does Archer-Daniels-Midland get millions/billions to NOT grow crops? Why is the Northeast Dairy Compact getting subsidies so they can compete with Wisconsin dairies? I could sit here all day and ask these questions.
I apologize to all those who were hurt by my comments. I did not intend in any way to suggest that all recipients of assistance were deadbeats and undeserving.
So, again, hudley, I’ll ask - why not give it all up and move to Green Acres? I hear the Amish and the Mennonites are losing members - they’d love to have a convert, I’m sure. What’s stopping you?
I believe I gave your suggestion the attention it deserves…none.
If theoretical discussions are beyond your capabilities as a self described simpleton, then i suggest you retire to a thread that is less taxing (never mind, you LIKE paying taxes) on your intellect.
Anyone who is happy to give the govt a large, interest free loan is a moron I have no intentions of conversing with, so please direct your questions elsewhere.
(B) Seems a simple question, but also seems beyond your capability to answer. I guess you’ve never heard the phrase, “Put up or shut up?” If you have such a huge anti-government hard-on, go live the life you proclaim rules all. Trust me, the thought of you without a computer fills us all with a sense of relief.
yawn. you don’t seem to be able to grasp the concept of “theoretical”, which I clearly stated so many times, do you?
But, having seen your sig line on one of your other posts, things are coming into a sharper focus.
Mr “ask the gay guy” has an agenda. And he needs the federal govt to fund it for him. What agenda? To indoctrinate the kiddies into believing that choosing the gay lifestyle is a healthy alternative to a straight one. Let me guess, you think the govt program they ran up in MA, deliberately hiding the agenda from the parents, where the gay advocates taught grade school kids the joys of fisting is a wonderful one, and should be taught to all kids? Perhaps you want federal funding for NAMBLA too? Are you a member? Personally I don’t really care what consenting adults do. But since you insist on trying to make my statements and position into something they are not, I will return the favor. What say ye, chickenhawk?
