Teenage Sex in Northern Europe vs North America

[Really_Not_All_That_Bright]

[QUOTE=Lizard]
That is really surprising. The Netherlands is thought of as a sexual free-fire zone amongst many Americans I know, including myself; a place where hookers are easy to find and work openly, 50% of the populations are swingers, etc. Huh. What do I know? Not much, apparently!
[/QUOTE]

That’s because most Americans never set foot outside Amsterdam.

The rest of Holland is full of clog-wearing farmers admiring their windmills.

Okay, not really, but the point is they’re not all making porn and growing weed, which seems to be the American stereotype of the Dutch.

[Septima]

Some more anecdotes here.

• I grew up in a place as “backwards” as you can get - fishing and sheep farming country, about 15%-25 percent of any given class belonging to some christian fundamentalist comunity (i.e. no alcohols, no sex before marriage, no dancing, no swearing…you get the picture. Most of these where nice kids though, if a bit flaky).

Among my peers were:

-by the end of obligatory public school (age 15): No pregnancies, among the christian or secular kids. No people known to be having sex, though many rumors.

-by the end of “high school” (three years, usually age 16-19): About half the people in my class were in a relationship of 2 years or more. About one in 4 was assumed to be (by their own admission) virigins, most for religious reasons. No pregnancies.

In fact, the only girl I know who got pregnant by accident was in her early twenties, did it “accidentaly on purpose” and had a history of mental illness. She is still with the father, and has another child by him.

Accidental pregnancies just aren’t the done thing. Everyone knows how to avoid them.

Of course, should anyone fall pregnant by accident (i.e. used birth-controll correctly, but got pregnant anyway), they would be met with nothing but sympathy. It happens, you know? Getting pregnant because you “forgot” to use a condom is not an accident, it’s a result of being a screw-up in the first place.

[Septima]

Oh, some facts I like about Norway:

-BC-pills are free for girls younger than 20.

-Almost anyone can prescribe them. My first student comunity had a list of which currently residing medical students had got far enough along in their studies to prescribe them. (Some doctors will insist on a medical examination before your first prescription, but if you really don’t want one, just find your friendly neighbourhood nurse, medical student or midwife.)

• Condoms are handed out by the fistfull at any doctors office, emergency room, health advice office and gay pride parade (these come in pretty pink and rainbow wrappers).

-STD-testing is free, anonymous and widely available.

-treatment for pregnancy-related complaints is free a lot of places, among them the student health office.

-Morning-after pill is over the counter.

[Maastricht]

[QUOTE=Lizard]
That is really surprising. The Netherlands is thought of as a sexual free-fire zone amongst many Americans I know, including myself; a place where hookers are easy to find and work openly, 50% of the populations are swingers, etc. Huh. What do I know? Not much, apparently!
[/QUOTE]
I have often thought that the real cultural difference is not the amount of permissiveness, but the amount of emphasis. In the Netherlands sex just isn’t much of a big deal. For one thing, Dutch sex isn’t as dangerous as in the USA; there is far less of puritan condemning going on, and the risk of having to pay child support for 18 years is pretty much non-existent. On the other hand, sex isn’t hyped; there is very little pressure on having done it, or not done it by a certain age, or with a certain number of partners. The only thing that is emphasized to our youngsters over and over, ad nauseam really, is that, if they do it, they should do it safely, responsably and above all with common sense and sensibility.
And all that is made easy for them, with condoms and the morning after pill stigma free available over the counter in any drug store.

It often shocks Americans to hear that Dutch kids, if they still live with their parents when having sex for the first time, will ask their parents permission for the boyfriend or girlfriend to “sleep over” and that will be granted, with everyone knowing sex might ensue, and no-one making a big deal out of it, except for the parents asking the kids if they are prepared and forcing BC on them. There is very little making out in parking lots or shared dormitories in Holland.

I sometimes think the attitude towards sex in the Netherlands can be compared to the attitude towards food by someone who is NOT on a diet. Such people can forget about food for hours, and be not very interested in meals. The American attitude towards sex, by contrast, would be how a person who IS on a diet feels about sweet, sweet (and very bad!) delicious chocolate cookies.

That Dutch attitude has its drawbacks, of course. I often suspect we enjoy sex far less then you guys. With the exception of some people who are going all-out in Amsterdam, for most of us Dutch sex is simply not that much of a thrill. We’re rather boring, really.

Another side effect is the lack of romance. Compared to Americans, many if not most Dutch men are cads and Dutch women are no-nonsense types who deserve them.

One last side-effect I came to realize while reading this thread. There IS considerabel cultural and parental pressure on girls not to have kids at a young age. The precious few girls that, despite all sensibility and freely available BC, do get pregnant while in highschool, are very unlikely to be encouraged to have the baby. Far more likely is that they wil feel pressured in taking the morning after pill in the same week as the “accident”. While that may be the most rational and most reversable decision (from the mothers POV), I don’t know how many young girls who might want deeply to be mothers are pressured into doing something theyd rather not.

That also has the disadvantage of there being virtually no Dutch babies up for adoption by Dutch parents. Dutch parents who want to adopt have to adopt from abroad. And the 'sensible"postponign of motherhood has also resulted in us having on average the oldest age of first-time mothers, with all the added risks of infertility.

[burundi]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
The risk of having to pay child support for 18 years is pretty much non-existent.
[/QUOTE]

Wait, non-custodial Dutch parents don’t have to pay child support? Does the custodial parent have to pay for everything? Or are you saying that unintended pregnancies are usually aborted?

@Maastricht

And the 'sensible"postponign of motherhood has also resulted in us having on average the oldest age of first-time mothers, with all the added risks of infertility.

@pullet

In grad school, my friend (age 27) discovered that she has a rare disorder that made her odds of conceiving about 5% of normal and would only get worse with time. Since she wanted offspring, she and her husband tried and she delivered about 6 months ago. You should have heard the snide remarks. She actually had to send out an email to the school explaining why she had decided to get pregnant.

There’s definitely a segment of the US population–highly educated and urban for the most part–who seem to view any mother under 30 as a hillbilly child bride. I have a 31-year-old friend with a 10-year-old son. She’s married to the father of her kid, not on any kind of government assistance, and a great mom. But she says that her age sure raises eyebrows among the yuppie moms at PTA meetings.

[Freudian_Slit]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
Another side effect is the lack of romance. Compared to Americans, many if not most Dutch men are cads and Dutch women are no-nonsense types who deserve them.
[/QUOTE]

Wait, are you using those words correctly? Why would a “no-nonsense type” deserve a cad?

[Maastricht]

[QUOTE=burundi]
Wait, non-custodial Dutch parents don’t have to pay child support? Does the custodial parent have to pay for everything? Or are you saying that unintended pregnancies are usually aborted?
[/QUOTE]
A bit of both. There are far fewer unintended pregnancies in the first place, due to a greater acceptance of planned birth control.
The few times that pregnancy does occur, the woman/girl is far more likely to get a morning after pill then to “keep the baby”. (Note that “taking a morning-after pill” is not counted in the statistics as “abortion”.)

Legally, a woman in Holland is not obligated to sue the non-custodial father for child support. Is that different from the USA? More importantly, for the woman there is no economic necessity to sue dad. A Dutch single parent can sort of decently get by with the States’ financial help. Most women in that situation prefer dealing with the State, to dealing with a guy who has made it clear he doesn’t want to have anything to do with her or the kid. If the woman makes the choice, that for her, suing dad isn’t worth the emotional hassle, the State isn’t going to force her otherwise.

If a Dutch woman wants to sue the non-custodial and even non-acknowledged) father for alimony, she can. That’s rather new; back in the day when there were no DNA test, AFAIK she couldn’t. In that case, it is possible for a guy wo didn’t want to have a kid (or even didn’t know he had a kid) to be dragged to court and be forced to pay child support. However, AFAIK this very rarely happens.

[Maastricht]

[QUOTE=Freudian Slit]
Wait, are you using those words correctly? Why would a “no-nonsense type” deserve a cad?
[/QUOTE]
Probably less then perfect word-usage, sorry.
I was trying to describe the match between a woman who thinks that if she wants flowers on the table, she’ll buy them with her groceries at wallmart, and who is married to a guy who hasn’t brought home a romantic bunch of flowers since the first time he came to her home for dinner, now twelve years ago.

[Freudian_Slit]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
Probably less then perfect word-usage, sorry.
I was trying to describe the match between a woman who thinks that if she wants flowers on the table, she’ll buy them with her groceries at wallmart, and who is married to a guy who hasn’t brought home a romantic bunch of flowers since the first time he came to her home for dinner, now twelve years ago.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, okay. I was reading “cad” as basically a bad guy, the kind of guy who has sex and doesn’t call, or knocks a girl up and leaves down, etc…what you’re saying seems to make more sense.

[eleanorigby]

[QUOTE=Lizard]
True, dat. I got a prescription from a nurse-practitioner when I lived in Oregon. I got the impression they were more common out West, where the population density was so low it was hard to get doctors.
[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are. I did speak (post?) overbroadly, but then NPs are thin on the ground around here…

[Mama_Zappa]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
…
Legally, a woman in Holland is not obligated to sue the non-custodial father for child support. Is that different from the USA? More importantly, for the woman there is no economic necessity to sue dad. A Dutch single parent can sort of decently get by with the States’ financial help. Most women in that situation prefer dealing with the State, to dealing with a guy who has made it clear he doesn’t want to have anything to do with her or the kid. If the woman makes the choice, that for her, suing dad isn’t worth the emotional hassle, the State isn’t going to force her otherwise.

If a Dutch woman wants to sue the non-custodial and even non-acknowledged) father for alimony, she can. That’s rather new; back in the day when there were no DNA test, AFAIK she couldn’t. In that case, it is possible for a guy wo didn’t want to have a kid (or even didn’t know he had a kid) to be dragged to court and be forced to pay child support. However, AFAIK this very rarely happens.
[/QUOTE]

Not speaking from personal experience, but from things I’ve heard from other Americans:

The mother is not legally obligated to sue for child support. I don’t even know if most single mothers do so though I imagine a lot do. HOWEVER - in order to get government aid, I know that at least sometimes the mother has to attempt to get child support from the father. A friend was in that situation: her husband (second husband, father of her younger child) was jailed, so she was suddenly without income. She was able to get food stamps (assistance with purchasing groceries), but could not receive any sort of cash assistance from the state unless she went after her first husband for child support for her older children. Long story, but she did not want to do that. Ultimately she made it by - just - through a combination of borrowing / gifts / help from church, until she was able to start a new job.

As far as attitudes toward teen pregnancy: I think that they are becoming distressingly blase. I don’t mean that a girl should be treated as a pariah for turning up pregnant, but they don’t face any of the sort of “you must be NUTS” reactions that you’ve described. Other kids seem to be more matter-of-fact. Even excited, if what I’ve seen / read is true.

When I was in high school (Catholic school, in the 1970s), there were two girls (out of 20) in my homeroom alone who had had babies by the time we graduated. Both girls had family support and did manage to graduate. In one case, the father finished high school and I believe they got married after that; in the other case, the father dropped out and joined the Army. I don’t know what happened to that couple.

Babies for adoption in the US are nearly as rare as you describe in the Netherlands. Here it’s not so much because the pregnancies never occur / are terminated, however, but because the stigma of being a teenage unwed mother is nearly completely gone, so the girls wind up keeping their babies.

[Harriet_the_Spry]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]

The few times that pregnancy does occur, the woman/girl is far more likely to get a morning after pill then to “keep the baby”. (Note that “taking a morning-after pill” is not counted in the statistics as “abortion”.)

[/QUOTE]

This may seem like a nitpick but it is one of my pet peeves. The morning after pill is taken before a pregnancy is detectable, within 72 hours of unprotected sex or an obvious birth control failure. Do you mean RU-486, also known as the abortion pill, chemical abortion, or medical abortion (to contrast with surgical abortion)? Not including the morning after pill in abortion statistics makes sense, since in a large percentage of its uses no pregnancy would have occurred. However, not counting RU-486 use in abortion statistics seems like it would not be a valid comparison.

[Maastricht]

Harriet, I’m explicitly referring only to the morning-after pill, which is over the counter available here without prescription. As you say, the MAP is taken within 72 hours after intercourse.

RU-486, or Mifegyne as it is called here, is a medication that can be used to induce an abortion several months into pregnancy. Mefegyne can only be prescribed by a doctor working in an hospital or an abortion clinic. Taking such a pill, als an alternative to currettage, will be registered as an abortion in the statistics.

[burundi]

Will Okun, who teaches high school in inner city Chicago, wrote an editorial for the New York Times about teenage sexuality. He asked his students to write down (anonymously) why they thought unprotected sex was so rampant in his community. Their answers were interesting and heartbreaking. It’s not as simple as improving sex ed; it’s a matter of changing a whole cultural mindset.

"Girls think they need to have unprotected sex in order to keep their man.”

“Unprotected sex means that you are taking the relationship to the next level, and everyone wants that serious adult relationship.”

“Unprotected sex means that you trust your man. Girls want to believe that their man is only with them so they have unprotected sex as a way of proving their loyalty.”

“Teenagers that don’t use condoms every time just don’t care about themselves. They are not thinking about their future because they don’t have a future. Me, I got big plans so I’m always going to be wearing a condom.”

“If a kid doesn’t have love at home, they’re going to find it somewhere else. For a boy that means a gang. For a girl, that means sex with a boy and a baby.”

@Mamma Zappa

Here it’s not so much because the pregnancies never occur / are terminated, however, but because the stigma of being a teenage unwed mother is nearly completely gone, so the girls wind up keeping their babies.

I disagree. In many working-class and poor communities, there seems to be little stigma attached to teenaged motherhood. However, in middle-class and upper-class communities, there is very much a stigma. The girl might not be bundled off to “visit Aunt Sally” for 9 months and forced to give up her baby, as happened in the past, but teenaged pregnancy is definitely looked down upon in those communities. Two-thirds of teen mothers come from poor families.

[Knorf]

For the politics in the U.S. far too much of the time, policy is not driven around the good of society and social health, but rather around an ideology. People don’t want cures to social ills–they want to feel good about themselves via religious dogma and/or accumulation of wealth. A cure to them is only valid is it 1) has no financial impact and 2) validates their personal philosophy. (You see this basic attitude on the SMDB all the time, but it’s worse and more base–less thought out–in the general population.)

It’s not working out very well.

[BrainGlutton]

[QUOTE=ThirdCultureKid]
**Teenage Sex in Northern Europe vs North America
**
[/QUOTE]

Oh, don’t ask me to choose!

[Lizard]

[QUOTE=Maastricht]
It often shocks Americans to hear that Dutch kids, if they still live with their parents when having sex for the first time, will ask their parents permission for the boyfriend or girlfriend to “sleep over” and that will be granted, with everyone knowing sex might ensue, and no-one making a big deal out of it, except for the parents asking the kids if they are prepared and forcing BC on them.
[/QUOTE]

That is shocking, but it also probably explains your lower juvenile crime rate.

That Dutch attitude has its drawbacks, of course. I often suspect we enjoy sex far less then you guys. With the exception of some people who are going all-out in Amsterdam, for most of us Dutch sex is simply not that much of a thrill. We’re rather boring, really.
Another side effect is the lack of romance. Compared to Americans, many if not most Dutch men are cads and Dutch women are no-nonsense types who deserve them.

I hear you, and I suspect it’s because the forbidden fruit always tastes sweeter. I love nothing more than a good roll in the sheets with my girlfriend, and I know she feels the same. We treat each other like royalty, because we both love the way the other can drive us wild. It’s really something special. There have been times when we made plans to go out and shelved them because we couldn’t keep our hands off each other. I wouldn’t trade that for anything.

[CalMeacham]

It often shocks Americans to hear that Dutch kids, if they still live with their parents when having sex for the first time, will ask their parents permission for the boyfriend or girlfriend to “sleep over” and that will be granted, with everyone knowing sex might ensue, and no-one making a big deal out of it, except for the parents asking the kids if they are prepared and forcing BC on them.

This is, indeed, an exceptionally weird notion. I couldn’t imagine parents in the US agreeing to it. And it conjures up weird scenarios in my head:
Mom: Oh, no, young man! No sex for you until you finish the dishes AND your homework.
Kid: Aw, ma!
Mom: Keep that up and you won’t even get a blow job! Now move!

[BlinkingDuck]

I’m confused…

Does any native European get pregnant ever?

{d&r.}

[Septima]

Joke asside, the birth-rate is pretty abyssmal most places.