Teeny little upstairs dormers on new homes

I’d have to check (if I were interested), but I do not recall rates being that high in the mid-late 80s when we bought our first home. Just a few years before I was in the market, tho, I recall them being in the teens for my older sister.

Another obvious factor is they just didn’t seem to build houses as large as is common today. I look back at photos when I was young - not to mention my parents - we look like freaking paupers living in hovels, even tho we had the impression we were relatively well-to-do. We had 4 kids in a bungalow w/ 1 bathroom until a powder room was added, w/ my 3 sisters sharing a bedroom. Just observing how the expected standard of living has changed.

Coincidentally, this morning I read an old letter from my deceased uncle, describing his childhood in Council Bluffs Iowa in the 30s-40s. Coulda been an alternate version of “A Christmas Story.” Chickens in the backyard, picking dandelion greens. He even describes getting his tongue stuck on an iron railing! :smiley: How times change so quickly.

Simple quick rule of thumb - on a fairly long mortgage, the first few payments are almost all interest - so figure out a month’s interest to get an idea of the mortgage payment. Today’s insanely low rates are one reason that people have been able to bid up house prices to insane levels.

For example, using the rule of thumb that mortgage should be half of income amount, (which in itself is frightening!) a $3000 mortgage implies an income of $72,000. Not impossible for many people, and fairly easy for a married couple both working. Plus, the “both working” part is annother factor that has driven up house prices.

If I drive around the older section of any town, you can see the houses from the early 1900’s, and then the houses from not long after WWII. They are amazingly tiny by today’s standards, but the baby boomer suburbs seem notable for the large lots - a side effect of car ownership being a normal thing, so population density was less. Today’s houses are more commonly 2 stories, unlike the boomer bungalows, but are jammed together as close as possible because land is now a major expense too. With barely 10 feet between houses, the days of a “separate garage in back” is impossible unless there’s a back lane.

If you can’t be arsed to do your own fact-checking, why are you even bothering to dispute the claim?

The US market has changed substantially since you were in it. (MD2000 has articulated some of these changes nicely). You’re operating on superannuated assumptions.

I wouldn’t care except that you use those assumptions to tell those damned kids to get off your lawn—and buy one of their own, but nothing too fancy.

The kids are all right.

Edits: clarity and typos

Heh. We just bought a 3-bedroom apartment for the equivalent of $750,000, and everyone’s been telling us how good a deal we got. Of course, we had some money, so the mortgage is going manageable, we hope.

There are two big changes in the economic landscape that helped drive houses larger:

Mortgage rates are relatively low
The relative cost of construction vs. land has shifted

Back when the GI bill funded the construction of the suburbs, land was a very minor part of the cost of suburban housing, but construction was expensive. Land is much more costly, now, but in inflation-adjusted prices, construction is cheaper. I’m not certain whether this is driven by the devaluation of labor, or standardization of materials, or better tools, or something I’ve missed. Likely a combination. But it makes more economic sense to build larger dwellings, now.

Oh, there was also some limit on what square footage you could buy on some popular gi bill era mortgage, iirc. Apparently, that was important enough that a lot of houses were built just under that limit, but designed to be easy to expand. That might have something to do with the idea of “starter homes”, too.

But buying a house, selling a house, and moving are all incredibly stressful and time consuming (and expensive). Lots of people need to move, of course. So planning to do so when you don’t need to seems wasteful to me.

Hmm. Hostile much? Let’s see what I said:

That was in response to someone citing interest rates of 18%.

According to this site, in 1985 30-yr fixed was 12-13%. From 86-91, it varied between 9-11%. After 91, rates were consistently in the single digits, generally declining.

Moreover, you did not ask, but I have bought more than one home. At the time of my most recent purchase, rates were around 4-5%.

So please explain - what did I get wrong?

Fake dormers have been a thing for decades

Thery’re often built separately and placed on the roof. There’s no hole in the roof. It’s just a faux box.

I’ve seen them removed on diy shows. It’s very satisfying to see them pried up and rolled off with a nice thump.

Some are just eyesores. Yuck.
They can introduce rot where moisture collects.

My mom still has chickens in the backyard and picks dandelion greens, in the middle of Cleveland.

@Dinsdale, you might enjoy Kate Wagner (of McMansion Hell)'s take: McMansions 101: Dormers | McMansion Hell

But please do stop with the “kids these days aren’t interested in starter homes” nonsense. I bought my first “starter home” at 38, and it’s probably about the same size as the one you grew up in (one bathroom, three bedrooms), but I don’t know if adding a powder room is in the cards for us. My husband and I are both lawyers making good salaries, with no kids. Most of my friends can’t afford to buy a house at all. What you’re seeing is greater wealth/income inequality, where yes, there are some stinkin’ rich young adults who have it better than you did, but there are also a lot more who have it worse. Plus the other factors that have been mentioned in this thread. It’s really rude to say about my entire generation that we’re just “not interested” in starter homes, when so many of us would give anything to be able to buy one.

Geez - of all the things I post “not interested in starter homes” sure wasn’t among the things I expected to offend people.

But fine. I retract that statement, I apologize for any offense, and I will do my best to reform any such thinking on my part.

Thank you, Eprise_Me, for articulating my objection better than I could. And yeah for Kate Wagner—she’s the best.

In all sincerity, it does seem as if this is a blind spot for you. We all have blind spots, myself included.

You mentioned Council Bluffs, IA. I happen to be familiar with the CB/Omaha market, as well as those in Madison, WI, Phoenix, AZ and that of my current city, Portland, OR. These places collectively represent a broad swath of the US housing market.

If your experience is primarily in the non-urban upper Midwest, then the trends myself and many others are discussing arrived a bit later in that part of the country. I know no one who can find a starter home in Portland. And during boom times, speculators bid up prices in Phoenix on even the crappiest of houses. Like I said initially, the “starter homes” of your memory and imagination simply don’t exist in most markets.

Rather, they do exist, but they’re no longer remotely at “starter home” prices.

Apology accepted—thank you.

You recently asked what you “did wrong.” I think passive aggression is toxic, so I’ll answer your question directly. Speaking only for myself:

  • I perceived your “not interested in starter homes” comment to be not only sneering but ill-informed.

  • You essentially said that perceived sneering was both real and entirely intentional: you said you disapproved of “excessive consumption” and of those moving into whatever you think a “forever home” is when they are young enough not to deserve it, at least not in your opinion. Candidly, I think that’s gross—and more than a little odd. At the time, I held my tongue; you have a right to your opinion. But you asked what I found so odious, so there it is.

  • You rejected Lord_Felton’s cogent observation about interest rates with a blithe “nah,” which made no sense. His point was about how interest rates drive monthly payments much more strongly than the principal does. Evidently, because he named a high interest rate (18%) that was a few points higher than what you thought you might have gotten several decades ago, you rejected the whole argument. You declared yourself “not interested” enough to engage, which was false on its face—you were interested enough to reply. So yeah, I was annoyed enough to wonder why you even bothered to respond.

  • Finally, you pushed my buttons (this is on me) by sounding a lot like the boomers who foolishly wonder aloud “why don’t these damned kids just work their way through college like I did?” Most of the people saying that, IME, had tuition bills so low that their paychecks went primarily to basic living expenses and pocket money.

I paid for grad school that way by working as a TA, but undergrads often matriculate in debt to the tune of six figures. That makes it pretty hard to pick up a “starter home” for most people, even if they were actually available. None of this is obscure; it’s been covered extensively in the mainstream press and the financial press.

I’m obviously over-analyzing this. Like I said, Eprise_Me addressed the issue quite well. It’s ultimately not that big a deal to begin with. Yes, you said some things I found fairly obtuse and reactionary. On the other hand, your last blurb sounds a little melodramatic, like you perhaps think you’ve been hectored unreasonably.

The truth is somewhere in the middle: lots of people are struggling with housing right now, even upper-middle-class professionals. It’s no surprise that those starting out have to rely on their families for help—it’s really rough out there. Ordinary, middle-class people without extra help (or years of aggressively austere savings) often can’t afford to buy right now.

Cheers for the mea culpa—I’m choosing to assume that it’s sincere. The initial comment isn’t what really got my goat—and I admit that I let my goat get got, as it were.

Can we at least agree that fake dormers are dumb at best and, at worst, an ugly nucleation site for rot? :slight_smile:

Edit: fixed typos