Tell me about Jordan Peterson

Jordan Peterson is in the news a lot recently in Canada. He is a psychologist at Harvard and the University of Toronto who recently wrote a book called “Twelve Rules For Life” which tops the bestseller list. He became a campus hero and villain for refusing to use ambiguous new words to describe various gender identities. And he has a knack for religious metaphor that people seem to like or dislike.

Having read the first part of his book, which strikes me as insightful and well written, I am not quite sure why he is deemed such a controversial figure nor the greatest intellectual of our day. He seems very smart and insightful. I was wondering if people have stronger views, good or bad, about this apparently polarizing figure. Of course, this should probably be in Cafe Society, yet his views seem to embody politics and education. I have never seen his podcasts nor social media.

I’ve read part of his book, and watched some of his videos.

He’s just one more self-help guru, who happens to be the flavor of the month. His strong right-wing leanings make him stand out from most other self-help gurus. He’s a good speaker and good at debating, but there’s nothing new or particularly interesting in his ideas.

A fame seeker who has found his niche. A hero in his own mind, kinda guy, is what I see.

I hope he enjoys his ten minutes of relevancy and notoriety.

And I would question, ‘a lot’. In my view, ‘a bit’, is much more accurate.

FWIW, I follow most Canadian news and interest myself in many of those kinds of social issues, and I never heard of this guy, so he couldn’t be all that renowned. Also, “… is a psychologist at Harvard” is not correct as according to Wiki he has not been there in twenty years. His claim of being a “classical liberal” referenced in the bio seems to be code for being a social conservative, and his pronouncements seem to bear this out.

If someone wants an example of a Canadian psychologist who actually is at Harvard, has a knack for perceptive social commentary, and actually is justifiably famous, they should be thinking of Steven Pinker, not this jerk. I’m just now reading Pinker’s Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress which is an articulate refutation of much of today’s pessimism.

Moved to Cafe Society.

Colibri
General Questions Moderator

Pinker is certainly a more interesting person with more interesting views than Peterson… but he has his own issues. Like many pop-intellectuals he tends to be glib and superficial, with little real knowledge of history.

Here’s a good critique of Pinker’s Enlightenment Now:

Unenlightened thinking: Steven Pinker’s embarrassing new book is a feeble sermon for rattled liberals

*“To think of this book as any kind of scholarly exercise is a category mistake.” *

  1. He says silly things.

It’s easy to google a bit for the many silly things he’s said. But it’s a mistake to extrapolate his entire philosophy from them.

1.a) The worst cases of silly things he says seem to be comments outside his main area of expertise. He’s right that certain ideologies are poison, but wrong to lambast entire fields of the humanities as having succumbed to a newly evolved form of it, as if the world is filled with crypto-Marxists.

  1. He’s temperamentally conservative.

He insults the alt-right and radical left.

There are many, many, many more people on the left than the alt-right, so most of the attacks on him come from the left. (He gives them plenty of ammo: he says silly things.) In fact, it’s possible that the only reason he’s popular is that attacks from the left have made him popular among segments of the right. But ironically, almost all of the fiercest critics of him make exactly the same mistake he makes. It’s uncanny.

He’s accused of being alt-right, of being crypto-fascist, etc. It’s just bizarre to see complaints of his ignorance of post-modernism, of how he broad-brushes the left, of how he simplifies complex ideas into an oversimplified caricature… immediately followed by the suggestion that he’s a neo-Nazi sympathizer and alt-right leader. He and his critics are like mirror images of each other, in this regard.

  1. He says some interesting things.

He’s read a lot, thought a lot, and concocted a sort of neo-Jungian worldview which manages to be both compelling and, astonishingly, seemingly self-consistent. That doesn’t mean it’s right, but – on this particular topic, if no other – he does start from solid foundations and builds up from them. That’s more than most people can say. The numerous silly things he says are when he departs from this foundation. And he has the knack for expressing the obvious in an evocative way. Most of us can’t manage that, either.

  1. He’s a clinical psychologist.

He’s basically a self-help guru expanding his professional history and experience onto the internet, and he seems to have struck a chord.

  1. His audience is overwhelmingly male. He has a small army of young men listening to him. I imagine most of them are white.

This is an extremely important fact about him, and his audience.

He tells his predominantly young male audience that they need to stop blaming other people (like women and minorities) for their problems and take responsibility for their own lives. This is what earns him attacks from the alt-right, who want to blame everybody else but themselves for their loser status. And frankly, this is exactly what those young men need to hear. It is exactly the right lesson for them.

  1. He seems to be… successful.

I don’t mean popularity-wise (although he is popular) or monetarily (although rakes in gobs and gobs of cash).

I’ve been fascinated by how this guy has taken off, and I’ve read, hell, I-don’t-know-how-many-stories like this of young men who say they used to be neo-Nazi, or alt-right, or white supremacist, and he just… managed to talk them out of it. This is, I think, the primary reason alt-right leaders are firing at him, too. Losing followers to the guy. Peterson is the one who is telling them to stop blaming others for the mess that is their life. And it’s like, well, I’ve never managed to talk back anyone from a hate group. Not once. Not ever. And basically zero of the people from the left who casually criticize the (very silly) things he’s said have managed to do that either.

Conservatism right now is an erupting volcano of pure unadulterated id. It is ugly and violent and destructive and evil.

Whatever his faults (and they are many – he is, after all, a human being), Peterson represents a legitimate alternative to that volcano of hatred. I regularly roll my eyes at Peterson, but I also roll my eyes at the people in such an opaque ideological bubble that they can’t discern the difference between him and the endless miasma of suck that conservative “thought” has become. There genuinely has not been a single conservative thinker I can think of in decades (excluding some libertarians, but they don’t want to be called “conservative”) who are even slightly worth listening to. It’s a pleasant surprise to come across someone from that end of the spectrum who has the capacity to surprise. It’s a nice change.

  1. He’s definitely channeling the current zeitgeist.

He is a product of our times. That means he might not have much staying power. But he still represents a positive change, from that end of the spectrum, and we can hope the change sticks.

Thanks for the link to the critique, which I’ll be interested in reading. I do have a few observations in response to your comments, though.

First and foremost I don’t want to sound like I’m defending or advocating for Pinker or his latest book, because first of all I’ve only just begun to read it, and secondly, much as I respect the man, I myself have disagreements with Pinker in numerous areas, including some of his pronouncements on cognition and linguistics. But as an accomplished and respected cognitive psychologist he’s certainly a lot more than a “pop-intellectual”.

The other point here is that while you can cite John Gray in the New Statesman criticizing Pinker’s book, it’s only fair to point out that Gray is an anti-humanist who would naturally rail against Pinker’s second foray into an optimistic endorsement of progressive humanism, and about whom this has been said: “John Gray is a curious figure whose habitual assaults on humanism are all carried along with such breezy assertion and generalisation that his underlying bitter pessimism is cloaked in motley”; that he is a ““backhand defender of religion” and the author of “baldly stated error”. [Cite]

He seems like an example of a thoughtful conservative.

One of his strengths is that he doesn’t become defensive, or even very combative, towards the other side. He was photographed at a meet-and-greet with some alt-right folks, and the alt-right folks held up a banner of Pepe the Frog, a symbol I had not encountered before but is apparently an alt-right or white supremacist or suchlike symbol. In the YouTube clip I saw, some TV host or other tried to use that as a gotcha. And he did not react at all defensively or angrily - he explained the circumstances without belittling them, and basically said “sure, I meet a lot of people, some of them are alt-right, and it isn’t necessarily a mistake to engage them.”

If the Left hates you, and the alt-right hates you, you must be doing something right.

Regards,
Shodan

Thanks for the article about John Gray, it looks interesting.

But when you say “about whom this has been said”, it obviously matters considerably who said that, and you seem to be trying to avoid saying who it was.

It was said by A.C. Grayling, who is the vice president of Humanists UK and has his own very strong views, which are different from Gray’s - hence the criticism. We have to evaluate all these arguments and points of view ourselves, and decide to what what extent they are valid.

Agreed, and fair enough. These are subjective controversial areas in which a lot of smart people disagree. FTR, though, I wasn’t trying to hide anything. The article quite properly identifies AC Grayling as a philosopher, not a BHS official, and indeed that’s what he is: his extensive legacy of a wide range of accomplishments, publications, and honors seems to me to completely overshadow his role at the British Humanist Society, whose presidency BTW he declined.

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GGRV_enUS751US751&ei=aoWyWoTsJoywjwTDwYTIDg&q=jordan+peterson+twitter&oq=jordan+peterson+twitter&gs_l=psy-ab.3...0.0.0.55540.0.0.0.0.0.0.0.0..0.0....0...1c..64.psy-ab..0.0.0....0.D-PphhlRs88
I think he is showing more humanity this week.

Jordan Peterson: (@jordanbpeterson)

You arrogant, racist son of a bitch Pankaj Mishra… (proceeds to deviously twist what Mishra said)

And you call me a fascist? You sanctimonious prick. If you were in my room at the moment, I’d slap you happily.
Maybe it’s only the alt-right that he doesn’t become defensive or even very combative with. They tend to slap you back. :rolleyes:

Nathan Robinson reads Jordan Peterson so you don’t have to. Long, but worth the read if you are genuinely curious.

TLDR version. He’s an absurd pompous blowhard. Everything he says is obvious or wrong. But he pisses off liberals, so the right loves him. Milo Yiannopoulos with a degree.

I listened to a Sam Harris podcast where he interviewed Peterson and it was a trainwreck on Peterson’s part. Early on in the interview, they got stuck on the meaning of “true” because Peterson has attached some unorthodox qualifier to the definition of what is ‘true’ is that that truth survives. Something completely orthogonal to everyone else’s definition of true. Sam couldn’t get past this and they spent a couple of hours going back and forth. It sounds mundane, but I thought it was really interesting.

But something I noticed throughout the interview is that Peterson would occasionally have these ‘ticks’ where he would go off on a short right-wing rant before Sam would basically ignore it and bring him back to topic. I think this colored my perception of Peterson more than anything. It seemed his angry old man persona was peeking through his over-complicated prose.

I have this immediate revulsion response, when someone uses “marxist conspiracy” as an expletive for the projected “other”/ enemy, here in North America. And that he is a psychologist is the kicker. He’s bound to get attention.

Jordan: You have met the enemy and he is youse.

You know after seeing that Charlotte footage, of those young men walking together with torches, I have a hard time believing they would be slapping anybody back.

I got the impression Peterson himself isn’t that controversial, but he does often put himself in the position of getting yelled at.

Anyway, I agree with him on some superficial points - it’s wrong to mandate or demand that someone use particular terminology. I can picture an individual asking me to refer to them as “xie” or whatever, and I can picture myself doing so as a courtesy, but if they demand it, or call me a fascist for forgetting and saying “he” or “she”, well… screw xou, buddy, I’ll say what I want.

Does the law actually mandate this? From what I’ve read Peterson is exaggerating/straight up lying when he says he’s being forced to use preferred pronouns. But I haven’t researched it, and I could be misinformed.

Well, the law in question is summarized as:

I’m not sure what the legal ramifications would be of the following hypothetical:

Peterson [speaking at a debate]: I believe when my opponents says X, what she means is…

Opponent: Don’t call me “she” ! I don’t identify with that pronoun. Calling me “she” is a hate crime.

It might seem ludicrous that such a charge would be taken seriously by any court in Canada, but dumber stuff has happened. I have no problem recognizing that Peterson’s concerns are overblown, of course.