I’m being recruited for a position at another company that is two notches higher on the ladder tan where I am now. When the job was located here in my current city of Atlanta, it was almost o no-brainer decision.
Now, not so much.
The potential new company still really wants me, but now they want the job based in New York, as in Manhattan. Office is on 42nd Street.
I need to let them know this week if I’m willing to entertain the idea of moving to the city that is so nice, yada, yada.
So, here are the gory anonymous details.
Current situation - 47 year old guy, with a 48 year old wife, no kids. Live in suburbia in a 2000 sq ft house that we are right side up on, by a little. Two dogs. No family ties to Atlanta. Wife works in a field (microbiology lab)where she can likely get a job anywhere there is a teaching hospital. My current salary - $110K, wifes - $60K.
Possible new gig - The salary of $150K has been discussed, relocation compensation is a possibility, but not a very good chance at that. Potential new company has admitted that they were hoping to find someone local in NYC, but so far no other candidate has measured up to my resume.
So, here are my questions.
What would life be like in NYC for a middle aged couple from the suburbs of Atlanta?
If we want to live in Manhattan, suggested neighborhoods? Places to avoid?
Is a 50% increase in salary enough to offset the cost of living?
Depends on what you like. First the negatives – if you want to live in Manhattan, housing costs WAY more here than in Atlanta. You’ll be shocked, a 2000 square foot house in Manhattan would cost probably 4-6 million. People here just get used to living in smaller apartments. Honestly, you will have a hard time getting a nice 2 bedroom apartment on the salary you mention. Or, you could live about an hour away in Jersey or Connecticut and have a similar house to what you have now; but be aware there’s an hour long commute every day.
The best part of ny is the buzz of the city – it’s a fabulous place to be young and single, there’s a million restaurants, bars, activities, museums, etc etc. Great place to meet other young single people, cause so many people are new to the city and looking to meet new people. There’s a constant feeling in the air that something incredible may happen today. But honestly, that’s enjoyed much more easily by people who aren’t married with children.
I’ve been here 10 years and I love it. But as I get older and i’m thinking about marriage and kids soon, I’m expecting I’ll probably move to the suburbs or maybe even down to someplace like Atlanta.
Come for a visit and see if you like it. But be warned, it will be a very big transition.
$150K is probably not going to get you a big apartment, and your wife doesn’t have a job lined up yet. Depending on how quickly you could sell your place in Atlanta and how much equity you’d get back from doing so, you may be hard pressed to find an affordable apartment in Manhattan.
That said you don’t actually have to live in Manhattan. I’ve lived in 4 of the 5 boroughs of NYC and Manhattan is convenient/fun enough but if I were you, I’d live in a close by “outer borough”, especially if you’re able to downsize your living space. A 1BR or 2BR apartment will go for lots cheaper in, say, Long Island City in Queens (literally 2 or 3 subway stops away from this office on 42nd St., a 10 minute commute) than it would be somewhere in the city with a longer commute, and you can still do everything you want in the city by subway, or get a cab to take you home if you’re out late. Or Astoria.
Maybe 10-15 years ago I’d have recommended nearby parts of Brooklyn but it’s long since been “discovered” by hipsters which has seriously driven up the price.
As for how you will like it, that depends on how well you like living in the suburbs of Atlanta. If you’re frequently saying to yourself: “I wish getting into downtown for all the cultural activities were quicker to get to and easier to deal with - and all this worrying about drinking and driving!”, then NYC will be awesome. If instead you’re frequently thinking “I’m glad I live out here away from the noise, I never find any reason to go into town anyway”, well, NYC will be the total opposite.
If you’re not sure and are willing to try a completely new lifestyle to see how you like it, you’re still in a better position than many starry-eyed college grads who move to NY without a plan except to wing it with some pick-up roommates in a neighborhood they know nothing about, with or without a job lined up. Try renting your house in Atlanta while renting an apartment in Manhattan for a year, and see how it goes.
You need to look at one of the many cost of living calculators on the web to compare New York to Atlanta. That will give you the rough comparison for the cost. However, there are some things that it won’t tell you. You can certainly live in NYC (well) on $200K a year but some things just don’t translate well between the two cities. Your place is going to be a lot smaller and your lifestyle is going to be a lot different.
Even if you do manage to get $150K and your wife gets $60K, it sounds like a lot but you will not be rich by any stretch in Manhattan. Your perceived financial state may very well go down sharply even if other people are doing much worse. My personal recommendation as Southerner who has lots of experience in the expensive Northeast is not to do it unless you or your wife have always dreamed of living in NYC for some reason. It won’t work out long-term financially based on those numbers and your ages. It would be better stay where you are and take advantage of Atlanta’s cheap housing prices to set up a good retirement rather than blow loads of cash on super-expensive rent in Manhattan or go throw a terrible commute every day from a suburb. You can’t afford to buy a reasonable home in Manhattan with that much money so those are your choices.
Speaking for myself, my answer would not just be ‘no’ but ‘no way in hell’ and I am younger than you are.
Have you ever lived in a city before? I love living in large cities, but if you are used to living in the suburbs, everything is So. Much. Harder. Things you take for granted such as parking a car, having access to laundry, getting your groceries into your house, having a place to deliver to your apartment, access to your apartment on the ground floor or through an elevator, a place for your dogs to be walked, a post office that is not evil, access to a grocery store can just be more difficult. Now, you could end up across the street from Whole Foods, but all of these things take a lot more time and planning and thinking through than in the burbs. My point is that your lifestyle will change dramatically, better in some ways, worse in others.
Now, it could be an amazing, wonderful adventure. I also agree that $150k is a low for living in NY (coming from 160k in Atlanta). Of course, if you don’t mind commuting from Brooklyn (which really, is not that big of a deal if you’re not already living in Manhattan), you can rent some nice places for about 3k per month and you would probably have a fantastic experience. I would suggest going there and staying for a week, and not staying at a hotel. Stay in someone’s private home (through airbnb or by straight out renting an apartment) and get a sense of day-to-day life and if it fits you. You know, you might find Staten Island a better fit- it is much more residential and low-key, but is extremely accessible to Manhattan. There are also other areas of NY and vicinity in which it is possible to live in a more suburban environment, but of course with a longer commute.
I don’t agree about not finding a decent place to live. People making a lot less than $170-$210k a year manage to live just fine in Manhattan. The average salary is only like $90k.
It WILL be a lifestyle change though. You will be paying almost half your money on rent and living in a much smaller place than you are used to. If you like living in a big suburban house full of lots of crap, Manhattan might not be for you.
The upside is that you won’t need a car. You will also have access to a lot more stuff to do in your neighborhood (usually), so unlike living in the suburbs, you don’t need to spend your entire time in the house.
Seriously. If you haven’t spent some time there, you should before you consider this. Manhattan is not for everyone.
I’m with others who suggest looking for a place to live in Queens that’s near a subway station. Much more affordable than Manhattan, and much more a semblance of the life you’re used to.
I gotta disagree. No way in hell are you going to find a decent place in Manhattan on that salary. Most of us live in New Jersey, Brooklyn, Queens, Westchester, etc., and commute. I have a huge two-bedroom in a nice, safe area of NJ (I can see the Empire State Building from the top of my street) and have been commuting to Manhattan for 30+ years.
Completely untrue. $170-$210K is a shit-ton of money, even for NYC. He could get quite a nice apartment for that! Let’s say he pays $4000 per month (which is a lot, btw. Most people here don’t pay that much!) that would be $48,000 per year. If he’s making $200,000, he’s doing quite well.
I lived in (or around) NYC for 25 years, from the ages of 24-49. It’s a fabulous place to live if you’re young or rich, maybe not so fabulous otherwise. In your age and situation it could really go either way, and I’d highly recommend a trial period of about a year. What you’re proposing is a TOTAL lifestyle change, and the new lifestyle is one that you only marginally comprehend. And living in Manhattan is problematic, even for people who are used to it. I’m not trying to talk you out of it, because for all I know you may take to it like a duck to water. But try it out first.
I made the opposite change, from a 1-bedroom Chelsea apartment to a 3-bedroom house in the 'burbs . . . and that was equally traumatic.
If you are used to living in the Atlanta suburbs, and you like it, you better be a very flexible person to enjoy working in Manhattan. You either pay a fortune to live in a broom closet in Manhattan, or move further out and deal with a long commute. And everything, and I mean everything, costs more. If you have good sized dogs, I think living in most of the city would be torture for them. They have to be walked on a leash if they go out at all, and you have to clean up their business, right then and there when it’s deposited. Outside of the city is expensive also, and 10 or more hours of commuting time is common. And the commutes are expensive. You’ll pay to park, or pay for the train, and sometimes pay to park for the train.
Also, attitudes are very different. New Yorkers can seem to be quite rude compared to many other parts of the country, although part of it is a brutal honesty that didn’t bother me that much. And the entire metro area is very status concious. If you’re not good at one-up-manship and name-dropping, you may feel very out of place.
I lived in Westchester for 17 years. I moved there for a job, bought a house, waited out a housing recession, then got out when I could turn a good profit. I wish I’d left sooner. No way I’d take the job based on the money you’re talking about, but you have to evaluate the effect on your career long term. It isn’t going to hurt to raise your salary level for the future. It may be a tough choice to make.
Most of the things that makes NYC better than other large American cities like Atlanta cost money.
Manhattan is so compact that neighborhoods change by the block. You really have to walk around the neighborhood to get a feel. Its been a while since I lived in manhattan but I used to live on the upper east side near third avenue and 86th street and I found it pretty convenient. Lots of restaurants and stores.
Frankly a lot of people just move out of the city into the suburbs, but if you are going to live in the suburbs then wtf is the point unless you are making googobs more money. A NYC suburb is not THAT different from a suburb of any major city.
Maybe. It depends on your standard of living. If you are willing to live on the fourth floor of a small building without and elevator or any amenities and you don’t go otu to eat a whole lot then sure, its enough but if you intend to live the NYC lifestyle then no, nowhere close.
Great feedback, all. I’m at work right now, so I can’t respond to all, but here are a few things.
[ul]
[li]We absolutely know that we would be giving up a house to move into an appt. No issues there, we actually would be looking to downsize/simplify our lives anyway.[/li][li]The wife has done a little checking, she is probably looking at around $80K for a comparable job for her.[/li][li]Car is not a big deal for us, actually we “think” we would like not having to worry about owning a car. When we have traveled to a city (NY, London, etc) we have enjoyed not having to stress about keeping up and managing a car.[/li][/ul]
Like another poster, I’m a native of one of the outer boroughs. I was born here, and have spent 99% of my life living in either Queens or Suffolk County. You would probably do much better, both economically and from a lifestyle perspective, on the outskirts of Manhattan, east, west, or north (don’t go south into Staten Island, or too far east into Long Island, IMNSHO). You can get a small house or a large apartment for less than a small apartment in Manhattan. If you choose to go that route, look at your commute. Take into account parking fees if you keep a car, and commute price and time (be wary of too many switches). Queens, Brooklyn and NJ near Manhattan, you’ll can get by without a car. The further away, the more you might need one. If you are used to the convenience, it will be yet another culture shock.
NYC pace is fast. Young people moving in are generally more adaptable. You should ask yourselves if you are that adaptable at this point in your life. I’m the same age, and for me, slowing down would be easier than speeding up at this point.
There is a lot of that, but I don’t take part, most of my friends and acquaintances don’t take part, and I don’t feel out of place. It really depends on the social circle you find yourself in.
There are really lovely neighborhoods in Brooklyn - at your price point (~3-4k) I’d suggest Central Park Slope.* You’ll be near Prospect Park (a large park with woods and fields, designed by the same people who did Central park, not a 1/2 block pocket park) for the dogs, 15 minute from manhattan via a variety of different subways lines, and the crowd leans “lesbian vegan professionals settling down with 1.5 kids” vs. “just got out of college hipsters” – there are lots of great restaurants, a fair number of bars/performance spaces. It’s a short drive to the IKEA, Home Depot, etc. Allegedly, they’re putting in a Whole Foods.
There are some logistical things about moving to NYC you might not think of. When I moved back to the city (after leaving for college, then living in midwest college town and a southern farmtown) I had to put down a deposit using a check drawn on a NYC bank. Weird, right?
-Expect to use a broker. You don’t need a broker but in your situation – which I assume includes a limited timeframe for finding a place for reasons you’ll see in my next point – you’ll end up using one. Some brokers are paid by the building (“no fee” brokers). Most are paid by the renter (“fee” brokers) and charge about 12% of the annual, or, roughly, one month’s rent.
-It is difficult to impossible to look for an apartment more than 30 days before your movein date. Most apartments are listed 1 month before (in the first week of June for July 1 move-in) and are rented within a week or two. 6 weeks out is the earliest you can hope to see anything.
-You can’t drive a moving truck on anything labeled “[name] Parkway”. Reason: low bridges. Do not try to test them. Hopefully that won’t be your problem, though.
You can sign up for Zipcar and have a car only when you need it for running errands. In brooklyn/queens you can call for a ride 24 hrs/day for a flat fee based on destination, (“Car service”), in Manhattan cabs are everywhere.
If you’re set on having a car, I’d suggest Kew Gardens in Queens, taking the LIRR to manhattan (21 minutes). There’s lots of street parking, (its a mix of 5 story apartments and single family homes) its near Forest Park (mostly wooded, with recently renovated multiuse horse/bike/dog trails) and it’s very affordable. By subway it’s 40 minutes to midtown.
*defined as: the area bounded by: 6th Ave to the east, Prospect Park to the west, Flatbush Avenue to the North, and 15th street to the South. If any real estate agent tries to tell you someplace outside these bounds in Park Slope, they are lying.
I second that. My friends and I are all recent college grads living in Manhattan and make a very puny fraction of that yet we’re somehow still managing to live here and not be scraping pennies off the ground. One of my friends lives with two roommates in Hell’s Kitchen but they pay less than $1000 each, so for two people that would not be a huge increase. My other friend lives in a studio in Chelsea with her boyfriend who works at a grocery store. I would be very surprised if she is making more than $70,000 and he’s obviously not raking in the dough, but they’ve made it work.
Apartments of a decent size are also very affordable in the west side of Harlem (where I live). The west side (the east side not so much yet) has rapidly gentrified and there are a bunch of new “luxury” developments that are being built. But the rent here is still lower than it would be elsewhere since Harlem isn’t a high demand area.
