It’s not only emergency services, but – in many of these ‘off-grid’ areas – it’s incredibly difficult to find a plumber, an electrician, a handyman, a window person, a roofer, or nearly any other home repair provider who will come out your way.
Obviously, this may or may not be true in your proposed area.
And if your issue happens to be your solar, your charge controller, your DC-DC, your inverter, or nearly anything else in that system, your options get more limited, and quickly.
So you need to be really handy and really self-sufficient.
I view the off-grid thing as similar to an RV (or a boat) in some ways: unless you have a lot of money, and an endless list of repair people willing to work on your RV on a timely basis, you really have to have the health, tools, skills, and vitality to do most things yourself.
I wonder whether a little ‘compound,’ with a few tiny houses – each of which could be moved somewhere more ‘urban’ if the need arose – wouldn’t offer more practicality with a bit less risk. You could even dedicate one ‘tiny house’ as the common area with the kitchen, living room, and its own full/half bath.
Snowboarder Bo sounds like he’s been around this particular block, or at least fantasized and thought about it.
I was an early victim of The Mother Earth News (While living in NYC!) and was young and clueless enough to jump in and pull it off. Four of my homes were built (by me) from the foundation up, or were total gut jobs. By the fifth, I knew enough to help and supervise a very competent crew. All this led to a life of professional woodworking, starting from no experience in the trades.
So, the advice:
Build it all on one level; I’m in advanced geezerhood, and I’m going to be most definite about this. Also, make EVERY door in the joint a 36" door. Someone may end up in a wheelchair, and there will be walkers involved. Also the local rescue squad will smile upon you.
In fact, when you move in, throw your own housewarming party, and invite the local VFD; they’ll remember where you are.
Cold climate? Install wood- or coal-fired backup heat, unless that’s the way you’re already planning to go.
Before you even break ground, read as many DIY masonry, carpentry, plumbing, and electrical books as you can stand. I was instructed and encouraged by TMEN and the Whole Earth Catalog, and, particularly inspired by The Owner-Built Home, by Ken Kern. As many in your group as possible should do this.
Why read building books? You will be able to recognize competent help more readily, and be able to catch screw-ups before the become baked in. Also, the good builders are happier working with clients who understand and appreciate what they do.
Recognize that, the farther from competitive urban areas you are, the fewer good craftsmen you will encounter. My experience was in three rural Maryland counties; the Eastern Shore, the Western shore, and the far west of the state. And West Virginia. Best results were obtained in Baltimore City, where I had two super crews working on two houses, simultaneously. This was most recently, when I was getting just too decrepit to hang from the rafters.
You will find good workers in the country, but you’ll have to hunt for them; local knowledge is your best tool, here. Often the problem was getting them to show up - there seems to be a different attitude to working your ass off your whole life, an attitude I bought into about fifty years ago.
But when you’re the client, it can be frustrating, so you might want to temper your expectations.
Don,t neglect communications - declining health makes it a must-have.
Drought unlikely. I mean, there have been what’s been considered droughts in the area, but they still have more rain than California does even in an average year for, say Los Angeles. Not an arid area at all. Even a “dry” year should provided sufficient water for use.
We’re not married to the rainwater/cistern option - there’s a lot to be said for a well - we’re just investigating the option.
The place I lived from 1998-2017 had one of those, utilizing baseboards. They do require some maintenance (which I used to be involved in) for the systems that circulated the heated water. They are pretty good and yes we are looking this. Definitely want to combine it with insulation - prior residence was NOT what I’d call well-insulated (although, sad to say, my current residence is even less so). A more modern installation may be less troublesome, the system we had was not aging gracefully but it had been installed in the late 70’s/early 80’s. I’d like to think some progress has been made in this area since.
So yes, we’re looking into it.
Yes, given we’re all getting older a wood stove is not something we’d be excited about. At a certain point we’d have to hire someone to chop wood, or buy it, although the acreage is sufficient we not only could use it sustainably for firewood, we’re seriously thinking of logging some of it and using the wood as building materials. (The owner has, occasionally, had some logging done so we know who to go to in order to get this done and utilize the resource).
We have discussed that as we age we’ll probably need to hire help for one thing or another, no matter how fit and vital we might be in old age. We’re planning to incorporate that into the maintenance budget along with repair funds.
Those of you with passive solar heat houses - love to hear more about how that has (or hasn’t) worked out for you.
I suspect we’ll be going something similar. AT&T does, in fact, provide cell service in the area (the owner was able to call me last summer from the property and send text/photos). The service isn’t great, but it does exist.
(We discussed the possibility of perhaps leasing a corner of the property to the phone company for a cell tower as a possible means of generating income, but that does not look to be feasible at this time).
Yeah, we’d probably have to get a PO Box in town.
Yep, we’ve discussed that, too. My old place had a grade-level entrance and wide hallways, which was a big help during my spouse’s final days. One reason for building (instead of buying already built in the area) is to incorporate “age in place” from the get go.
One of the parties to this project is an LPN with extensive home-care experience with severely disabled people (like a respirator-dependent quadriplegic) so has lots to contribute on that point. My former landlord, who has 40+ years building experience, is another resource as he has both adapted homes and built “age in place” from the start. There are guidelines for that construction, which is handy. One room people forget about is the bathroom - need room to maneuver a wheelchair there, accessible shower access, etc.
At present none of us need that, but either on a temporary basis (after surgery, say) or due to advanced age we might need walkers, wheelchairs, or just something to steady ourselves.
We all have parents and grandparents that lived into their late 80’s/early 90’s without needing to go into a nursing home. We all stand a decent chance of a healthy and active old age, but having cared for aged parents we’re aware that even the most healthy and fit 90 year old still has limitations and needs to take some extra care. If we do this right we might be able to finish out our lives there instead of needing to go into a “home”.
The place might have an attic (mostly because it will have a pitched roof to cope with the snowload and I’d hate to see space go totally to waste - I like options), but the living space will be all ground level.
No experience myself, but Homestead Rescue shows many of the problems people have, and the solutions the ‘rescue’ family comes up with. Water and power, structure repair, growing food, hunting…
Just because you are building in an unincorporated area, no town or city regulations, does not mean that there are none. Check with the county about building codes, building permits, and inspections. There will be some. I build a garage in my unincorporated rural county area and it still required site preparation and inspection, foundation and inspection, framing and inspection, and I didn’t even run power to it yet. If I had built it without county building permits and inspections, zoning codes would have required me to tear it back down once they found out. And they do have code enforcement people.
Regarding heating, wood heat is doable but involves a lot of work cutting, splitting, stacking, storing, for older people this can be an issue. Even if you have plenty of trees to cut down you don’t burn green or fresh cut wood, it needs to be seasoned. Most people here (NW Oregon) that I know who burn wood are spending a lot of time cutting wood in the summer and storing it, not for the next winter’s use but for the following winter, burning at least 2 year old wood. Pellet stoves are nice, I use one, but you have to buy pellets and the stove will not work without reliable electricity.
Building a house is not going to be the hard part, water supply/sewage, reliable heating, and power supply are going to be the things that need to be in place first, or a lot of effort and money could be wasted.
Maybe they cost more now. Not sure. And $35k only gets you an empty bunker so you have to build it out. But, even if you put $100k into fitting it out not a bad deal. No windows though and not near anything.
Replying to my own post, here (#22) which I started right after #4 (slow on the keyboard, I am) and I must say you have been served up a heap of good advice! Impressive, the number of knowledgeable dopers who’ve pitched in.
Came back to suggest that one or more of you live on site, if possible, through construction. After all, God has littered the nation with old, cheap RVs, and if someone is on hand at all times, that may impress your crew with your seriousness.
Good luck, and you’ve ignited a desire in me to do it all again, darn you!
As I stated in the OP no, we are not planning to build this as a DIY. It’s not just a lack of skills/experience (although I do, actually, have some construction experience) but also a recognition of our ages. DIY home construction is a young person’s game.
Yes, we are aware that that will cost more. That’s our problem, not yours and not a question for this thread.
From the OP:
and
Assume interpersonal relationships are not an issue for the purposes of this exercise/research. I don’t want to go off on a tangent about relationships here because that’s IMHO and I’m interested in “Factual Answers” about building an off-grid house.
Yep. Two of us have. The nurse member of this party, by the way, got his training in the military and has served in the Middle East during an active shooting war. As well as having had to deal with emergencies outside of a medical setting in a patient’s home while working as a home-care nurse for the severely disabled.
We are aware of the risks we run with adopting this lifestyle.
Yep.
Then it is fortunate we are not moving to the “mountainous West”. This is not fire country (though, of course, there is always some risk of fire).
“First responders can’t find the house” has been known to happen in this suburban area of Chicago.
As I said, we are aware of the risks.
It’s not, but that is a valid concern. We already (thanks chamber of commerce for the local town!) have a list of contractors and repair folk for the area. It’s off-grid, but there is an actual town with actual services within 10 miles as the crow flies (a bit longer by road). It’s not a big town (it is very much a small town) but this is not actually in the wilderness although it is pretty rural. Although two of us do like to hunt, we don’t have actually to grow/catch our own food. We’ll have access to civilization.
Nope. NOT going to work in a northern winter. During a winter storm having to traverse an exterior space could be extremely risky. I wouldn’t consider that where I live now, much less someplace a couple hundred miles north of my current location. If we do this we have to be able to hunker down in severe weather without needing to go outside for awhile.
What is this notion about tiny houses and moving them? From my research it’s far more efficient to build one structure than several. Tiny houses might be physically tiny but their costs aren’t so much.
We don’t want to live alone in old age. Personally, I’ve had far too much isolation from others these past two years, even in an urban area. I appreciate the concern and warning about relationship/privacy issues but as I have already said I’m looking for factual answers here, not relationship advice.
What about pellet stoves, or even pellet furnaces? I friend just bought a very remote house that’s heated by a forced air pellet furnace and he likes it. I think he gets pellets delivered a couple times a year and just needs to remember to fill the hopper now and again.
I have a very “outdoorsy” friend who built an off-grid home about 20 years ago. He quickly discovered it was more trouble that what it was worth, and way more expensive than he anticipated. He currently lives in a conventional home with conventional grid power. He now likes to say, “grid power is really cheap.”
From his experience I got the feeling that it was more of a hobby and a dream than anything else, and that those feelings quickly subsided when reality kicked in.
I think the problem is you (general “you”) live in an area with lots of sun which makes it a warm climate. Air conditioners use waaaay more power than solar cells will provide.
Or, you live in cold climates and there is not enough sun in the winter to provide enough power for heating.
So, you need to supplement your power needs with something else and if you are “off grid” that something else is likely going to cost you more than being on-grid.
There is probably a sweet spot between those two but even then there will be times of extreme heat or cold you need to account for and, I think, on balance it is not cheaper to live like that.
I eagerly await the opportunity to learn from your mistakes so I won’t have to make them myself.
Already planning on that. We’ve already had the experience of caring for elderly, aging parents, my late spouse was disabled, yeah, good ideas there…
That is a FANTASTIC idea!
Yep, we’re thinking along those lines.
We’ve been doing a lot of that. Also, as I said, I have some actual building experience myself, working on building from foundation to rooftop, installing plumbing and electrical, and so on.
One good thing is that we’re not in a screaming hurry - we’re looking at a multi-year project for this. It’s not just the work ethic of the locals. While there is transportation into and out of the area the locals have already emphasized to us that getting construction materials and equipment into the area can be difficult/time consuming. It’s doable, but not always easy. (See, we’re making use of local knowledge). We’ve been cautioned that if we do this we need to plan for the possibility that winter will interrupt construction and the site will need to be secured against weather.
SQUEE! it’s available on one of my streaming services! And I’m already running out of Netflix what with being under “house arrest” for another week so thank you.
(Always willing to learn from other peoples’ mistakes)
Yeah. Just a little TOO remote, there’s still a lot of construction involved, and you still have to install power/water/sewage with all the same maintenance costs of off-grid living. Not sure there’s much difference between the two projects.
Yep, we had thought of that. The land has been used for camping and hunting for the past 70 years (it’s been in the owner’s family multiple generations) so it’s not like no one’s ever parked themselves there before. Although we probably can’t break ground until our oldest is officially retired and doesn’t have to worry about a job.
Yep, we’re looking into that.
My personal preference would be to have more than one heating system, both as a back-up if one fails and also for really bad cold snaps which, while more rare than they used to be, can still happen.
One point–if you plan on not maintaining access for emergency services you are probably essentially uninsurable, which also means no mortgage. Some friends of mine decided they didn’t want to pay to plow their 3/4 mile driveway and their house burned down in the middle of a CO winter. The insurance company told them that because fire trucks could not get to the house, no coverage. The off grid house I built I believe they had to go to Lloyd’s for insurance.
This is not a problem. You simply rent or buy a large tank which will hold a year’s worth of your propane needs and fill it in the summer when propane is cheapest.
If you’ve got a good enough well, you shouldn’t need a treatment system, because you’ll be getting clean water into a properly sealed system. You should test annually to make sure, though.
But the more important thing is to make sure that the water’s there, in sufficient quantity and in usable condition either as is or with reasonable treatment. Do this first, before you build anything! Not all sites have water on them; and this may be a problem on particular sites even in generally wet areas. And water may only be there at some times of year/in some weather conditions.
ETA: I live within sight of a very large lake, and some of my neighbors have so much water on their sites, year round, that the problem is pumping it away. And right across the road from those neighbors is a property on which the owners drilled several wells according to best advice from well drillers, and they still have to have water trucked in during what passes around here for a dry summer (which most of the world would laugh at if they heard us calling it a drought.)
Yup. Talk to your neighbors. Always talk to your neighbors.
Do this before you build anything; and during; and after.
I gather that firewood’s available in the area? If so, I’d recommend a quality efficient low-emissions wood stove. Get one with at least some surface you can cook on, and then you can also get hot food in the winter. Enough wood to last a month or more, or even all winter, doesn’t take up all that much outdoor space, needs only a tarp over the top for storage, and if you get good wood and don’t make the mistake of covering the sides as well as the top of the pile will store for several years.
If it’s for emergency backup and a boost in cold weather, it doesn’t need to be able to heat the whole house; people who are cold can go sit by the stove. But as you’re designing the house from scratch, you should design with consideration for air flow to the stove and air circulation around the house from the stove. – houses that are built very tight may need to have an air duct built in that goes to the stove air intake; otherwise there may not be enough air coming into the house for safe or effective operation.
There are probably people selling firewood in the area, some of whom will split and stack it for you. Your wood-using neighbors might be interested in doing this on your property in exchange for a share of the wood; it’s worth asking. (The people doing the work should get half or more of the results – percentages may vary depending on where you are, as well as on how hard the wood is to get at and to get out.)
And wood stoves are very nice for sitting around in cold weather; whether singly or communally. Make sure the design allows room around the stove for doing this.
Yes indeed. The municipality level involved may be county or equivalent, or town or equivalent; but just because you’re out in the country doesn’t mean you’re not in a municipality. Some parts of the USA have very little in the way of controls; but some very rural looking places may have not only detailed building codes but also zoning.
This is also important for resale value. If a piece of property isn’t able to get public utilities and/or septic approval, it’s value can diminish. I know someone who is dealing with this exact thing: he bought a piece of property planning to build but for whatever reason cannot get septic approved so now is simply trying to unload it but nobody wants it – it’s only use is agricultural and it’s not really suitable for that either. Too rocky, not good pasture land.
Not directly related to the OP, but something to keep in mind. Further, in the OP’s situation having the availability of public utilities should the owners change their mind and decide to hook up to the power & water grids would probably be a good idea.
That would be great, except, of course, for having to lay about ten miles of infrastructure to do that. Which is why the nearest neighbors are all off grid. No one has the money to lay that line. Unless you can get sufficient parties with sufficient funds to do that it’s not going to happen.
I don’t see an insurmountable problem with septic - that’s what everyone else in the area uses so obviously it’s allowed. It’s a matter of conforming with local code and good practices.
A guy who lives off-grid near me would definitely concur. He uses propane for cooking, backup (to wood) heating, and to power a generator when his solar array doesn’t keep up with charging his battery bank.
His solar array and battery bank are both large (and expensive), yet there are occasional stretches of weather they can’t cover. Based on his reports, I’d guess few people would be happy living off-grid with the implications of zero fossil fuel consumption.
