I honestly don’t understand this. If we (any of us) come to the defense of someone we know, because we know the accusation is wrong, how does that engender some obligation to come to the defense of people we don’t know? ISTM that all of us will speak up for people we know and respect, but won’t for people we don’t know or don’t respect – because, not knowing or respecting them, we have no basis to defend them. The accusation may be wrong or it may be right – how would we know? There’s nothing inherently unfair about this: When you know someone, you have a basis to defend them; if you don’t know them, you don’t. So are you saying that because the mods don’t know everyone, they can’t defend anyone? That doesn’t make any sense to me.
Let’s get it straight, please.* No one defended him.* No one suggested anything about his character, only his intelligence; to wit, that it is unlikely that someone whose real life identity is known would use a message board to gather information on how he could best molest children.
The second moderator didn’t even refer to the fact that his real ID is known to some posters, so claiming that *the mods *defended him is silly. Did you read the referenced thread? It should not be too much of a bother. The posts that you claim “jump to his defense” are right near the top.
I didn’t see anything even remotely creepy or salacious about his question.
His question was
He wants to know whether teenage girls actually do go on the internet to find an older paramour or if it is in fact a myth created by the media and used by law enforcement to catch pedophiles. I’d be curious to know just how often this really does happen as well.
It seems that Zambini57 was going out of his way to look for something to take offense at.
[Toshiro Mifune] It’ll hurt. [/TM]
You never answered my question - “If a young woman, such as myself, posted the question, would that spark your suspicion too?”
I honestly find Bildo’s question to be a very intriguing one. Are there really young girls out there who are willingly agreeing to meet up with these older men? How often is this really happening, if at all?
I think that any parent of a young teen would want to know if this is something that really happens. It might be hard to believe that a 15-year-old girl would willingly meet with a 50-year-old guy in a hotel room… but is it really happening? If so, why? Why would these girls be doing this? (We know why the men are doing it)
Knowing the real statistics on a crime isn’t going to help the criminals in any way. Believing that is just ignorant.
If we know that, say, 5% of all children are molested at some point in their childhoods (I made that stat up), does knowing that statistic somehow empower or embolden child molesters? I don’t think so.
But you don’t know the accusation is wrong. Not if you “know” the poster from ST: DS9, Foreign Policy Debate and ChiSox threads, and have gone to dinner with them in a group a dozen times. Hell there are people who didn’t know it about their own husbands.
Hey, I’ve been on the boards for over eight years, and I have more than fifteen thousand posts, so I’m sure it’s okay for me to ask: Where can I meet some precociously promiscuous fourteen-year-olds so I can make sure not to have sex with them?
Also, where can I find Zambini57, so I can be absolutely certain I don’t smack him upside the head despite his being completely deserving of same?
So, IOW, you only believe in free speech as long as it doesn’t make you a little oogy. I know a guy in Cuba I bet you would love to meet.
What, they set up MySpace accounts for fake preteens who make up a list of friends, write fake bulletins, put up fake emo poetry, etc.? I’ll believe it when I see it.
My father’s great-uncle, who managed the project to create the ENIAC, the world’s first computer, was a victim of the McCarthy nightmare after he dared to commit the horrible crime of standing up for an accused coworker in court. He lost his job and would have lost everything if he didn’t have the support of friends and family who were smart enough to stay silent.
My grandfather, then a U.S. Attorney who helped to invent Social Security (a lot of good that does us now, but that’s another question), came to his aid in court. He, too, lost his job and would have lost everything if he didn’t have the support of friends and family who were smart enough to stay silent. After his incredible service to the federal government, they saw fit to toss him aside like an empty soda cup.
Another relative from the same side of the family, an Oscar-winning screenwriter who also wrote for such shows as Mission Impossible, dared to stand up for him in court. He, too, lost his job and, you guessed it, would have lost everything if he didn’t have the support of friends and family who were smart enough to stay silent. When he had to support himself by tending bar in the ENIAC project manager’s cousin’s restaurant, serving drinks with his Oscar on the shelf behind him, he was as humiliated as he was grateful.
I’m sure you’ll forgive me if I’m not a big fan of these “I like free speech, but…” fallacies.
Bullshit. If you’re going to make an allegation that serious about someone–which you did–at least have the balls to admit it.
Do you think maybe that’s a clue?
So what do they do, exactly? Set up a profile called “SexyGurl13” with blogs about how exciting it is to be with an older man? What effect do you think that has on the average older man, especially a solitary bachelor? Would you agree that a person who fantasizes about child sexual abuse would be more likely to take the “bait”, as you put it, than to actually go out and seek a real child with a real, perfectly innocent website?
AHA! So *you’re[ /i] the pervert!
Really? Because I’m pretty sure this very practice is common. If anything, my understanding is that convicted and sentenced criminals tend to overstate their “conquests” (be they homicidal, larcenous, lewd, whatever) over the law to look more badass and get more respect in prison.
That it’s a perfectly valid academic question. It’s not our job as members of a message board to figure out who has criminal intentions and who doesn’t, nor are most of us trained to do so–especially not you, me and denquixote, I’d bet. The problem with spraying accusations around like shotgun pellets on an anonymous message board, when you don’t really know the poster’s intent, is that you can do a lot of damage to people’s reputations without doing any good for anyone. Again, what’s wrong with calling the police and/or notifying a mod if you were legitimately concerned? Is that more difficult than I thought it was?
Of course, this is America and you have the right to make that accusation. It’s just as petty and jerkish as Billdo’s question was shifty.
Do you think this might be a clue?
Ah yes, the dreaded “information best not divulged”. No, you’re totally correct, Kommisar. The people must be protected from the workings of their government; it would only tempt them to do evil.
Are you actually reading this thread? If so, wait until the cottonmouth subsides and try reading it again.
So, what, we don’t defend anyone at anytime from anything, because we don’t have incontrovertible proof of their complete innocence? Sure, we may all be wrong about our friends and loved ones, thinking them decent people while all the time they’re evil closeted pervs, but working under that assumption seems like a pretty dark way to live. People are entitled to the benefit of the doubt, especially when what you know about them indicates they are good people.
For me, it is the difference between coming to someone’s defense because you know them, which I would do myself, and defending them mostly by stating that you know them.
I think one of my acquaintances deserves a logical defense that goes beyond my statement of opinion about that person’s character. Further, if all you do is offer the character reference, it’s left for someone to assume that there was some valid basis by which to make an accusation. And in this case there wasn’t. That is what the mods should have said.
But why can’t “stating that you know them” (the character defense) be the defense you offer because you know them? There is nothing illogical about responding to an insinuation of deviancy with “I know the guy; he wouldn’t do that and that’s not why he’s asking.” I fail to see how that would support an assumption there must be a valid basis for the accusaton.
IOW, if you can offer a character defense for one person, there’s nothing inherently unfair in offering it for that person just because you can’t offer it for everyone else.
No one offered a character reference. No one offered a character reference. No one offered a character reference. No one offered a character reference.
I’m sorry if I confused you, that particular comment was referring to the post in the original thread to the effect of “we know him, we know he’s not like that, so its ok”. I thought I made that pretty clear, but I guess not. And a slam on pot use! Love it.
It seems pretty clear to me that the defense wasn’t “we know he’s cool”, it was “lots of people know his real name and some people know his address here, and since he has a higher IQ than a rock, he wouldn’t be so stupid as to troll for child porn here”.
Ok, the best interpretation of the post I referenced would be ‘he’s known to us so he wouldn’t do it’, not ‘we know him so well personally that we know he wouldn’t do it’. You got me on that vast difference in meaning. Congrats.
But Jodi is saying it would be reasonable to do so, and she’s wrong in this case. But Jodi is saying it would be reasonable to do so, and she’s wrong in this case. But Jodi is saying it would be reasonable to do so, and she’s wrong in this case. But Jodi is saying it would be reasonable to do so, and she’s wrong in this case.
The reason she would be wrong is because there is no evidence to base that claim on. If you’re talking about someone starting a fight, you can apply what you know about your friend, like how inclined he is to start fights generally, to the question and then say, “No way. I know him, and he’s not the sort of person who would do that.” But there is no sort of person who would troll the internet for underage sex. If the friend did do that, he would hide any evidence of it from you.
Well, this is an interesting little thread to open up the Pit to. I appreciate all of those who recognized that my question (worded in what I though was a slightly amusing manner – your opinion may of course vary) was on the prevalence of young girls willing to meet older men for sex on the internet as compared to those seeking to sting those older older men.
In the thread a couple of people posted links to reports of actual young girls that were solicited for and actually met older men for sex (as well as anecdotal evidence of teenage girls going out with somewhat older guys up to their mid-20s, though none of those anecdotes involved men in their 40s or above like the creeps typically arrested). I appreciate these on-topic responses, though I would like to see some statistics if there are any available.
For the record, I’ve met scores, probably hundreds, of current and ex-Dopers from all over the country, mostly in the years when we had regular New York Dopefests, including the annual New York Dopefest Weekends (2001 to 2005, I think), which I took the lead in organizing. I’ve also had dozens of Dopers in my apartment for Sunday brunches at the conclusion of those Dopefest Weekends. I’ve met and had dinner with Colibri at a couple of those weekends, though I don’t think I’ve ever met samclem. Heck, my sister is even an active poster.
Whether or not I have an IQ higher than a rock (please feel free to form your own opinion), even a rock in my position would know better than to start a “how do i find hot teen gurlz” thread here.
I think the OCD thread is somewhere else. Good luck to you, though.
I guess if I had nothing to offer other than a character reference, I’d go ahead and offer it. It was my opinion in reading that thread, however, that the mods would have been on solid ground giving a warning for making an unnecessary (and quite serious) accusation following a legitimate GQ question.
Wow. Too Funny. How about you show me the character reference, smartass?
Fascinating. But *apropos *of what? Did I refer to Jodi? Am I Jodi’s apologist?
The fact of the matter is that certain posters labor under the delusion that **Billdo **was being defended, although none of them can provide evidence of same.