What religion are the other two employees? Do the Fundies harass them as well? If so, how do they handle it?
“His eyes are as green as a fresh-pickled toad,
His hair is as dark as a blackboard,
I wish he was mine, he’s really divine,
The hero who conquered the Dark Lord.”
Beth, from reading your posts I know that you are a normal, thoughtful person. However, the fact that your user name is “EvilBeth” and the fact that you are a “wiccan” suggests to me that perhaps you seek people’s disapproval. Don’t be surprised when people cluck their tongues and shake their heads at you if this is the exact reaction you solicit. Isn’t that part of the reason you tell people that you are a wiccan? First of all, it’s none of their business what your religion is. Secondly, you KNOW that the term “wiccan” is misunderstood and laden…
You complain about people using derogatory terms, but in your post you refer to your co-workers as “fundies”, as do other posters on this thread. Posters who would never DREAM of using the words “nigger” or “kike.” Yet terms like “fundie” and “redneck” are perfectly acceptable. Surely you can see the hypocrisy of this.
So, my answer to your question is that you need to decide what you want: A happy, harmonious workplace? Or a tense, combative workplace? You shouldn’t complain about an acrimonious environment if you contribute to the feeling of unrest.
Food for thought and sans malice. Lisa
Sorry, PunditLisa, but there’s no hypocrisy emerging from THIS particular keyboard.
**SAY IT NOW AND SAY IT LOUD!
FIGHTIN’ FUNDIE – DAMN PROUD!**
Would anybody claim to be a Fundie who wasn’t?
Ciao, baby. 
BTW, Evilbeth, this being America, while I might not agree with what you say, I will still defend to the death your right to say it.
Ciao.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
I have explained several times on this board why I chose that username. It is a nickname that didn’t come from any kind of malicious or evil doings. It’s a stupid story but it has to do with a fake rubber bat eraser and a summer I spent acting as responsible adult to my friends’ adolescent antics. I have neither the time nor inclination to explain it all again and suggest you look it up if you want to know. Anyone who has ever met me has laughed at the assertion that my nickname reflects my real personality at all.
For the record, I did not tell these people I was Wiccan simply because I do know how people misunderstand it. A friend of mine who used to work in my department knew and one day she let it slip during a conversation with some of the others. They all really liked me up until that day. Yes, that day changed their minds completely. During the Columbine aftermath, one of the women who had liked me very much until she found out my religion put an article on our bulletin board decrying the “satanists, witches and other evil” that were causing the downfall of today’s youth.
The other two people in my office are Christian in the general sense. They don’t attend church but consider themselves Christian. That seems to be okay with the Fundamentalists. And I used the word, “Fundies” because it was shorter than “Fundamentalists” not necessarily because it has negative overtones, although I do acknowledge that the word is used in that sense so I do apologize. They are Fundamentalist Christians. The terms “nigger” and “kike” are not simply shortened forms of more acceptable words. I don’t like the word “redneck” when it is used in a negative way, either. (Yes, it can be used in a somewhat-positive way when used referring to ones self, for example.)
PunditLisa, as for your assertion that the fact that I am “wiccan” (quotes yours) suggests to you that I seek people’s disapproval, I’d like to know what the hell that is supoosed to mean. I mean, I’m quite certain that most Christians choose to be that way just to piss people off. And all Buddhists choose their religion just because it drives other people crazy. And those wacky Hindus, calling themselves that just to spite everyone.
Again, I do not tell people what my religion is unless they ask me. I don’t go around handing out the Wiccan-equivelent of Chick Tracts condemning non-believers to lives of bad karma and reincarnations as cockroaches.
“You don’t have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die.” --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!
A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I’ll ask for it!
Oy, Oy, Oy vey…
EvilBethy, You gotta let them know where you stand. Your silence could definitely be taken as “sisterhood”, or agreeance with the fundies.
Personally, whenever you feel injustice is being perpetrated on persons not present, let them know! The churchies going through peoples med records to gasp at their ailments, while not illegal, is certainly unethical and I would have a hard time with it.
Me, personally being Jewish had to hear in the early 90’s the adjective “jewish” grow in popularity in California. Every time I heard it, I made sure the people knew they were standing next to a jew(who just happened to be a big jock), and they usually apologized, utterly embarassed for themselves.
So, I must agree with everyone here, in their own ways–excluding Lisa(that was not an attack, and please don’t take it as such…just my opinion).
Sam
Beth, you have indicated that you enjoy provoking the “fundies” from time to time and you have criticized them repeatedly for their religious beliefs. So, I am suggesting that perhaps both sides need to give a little here…?
Re the term “wiccan,” let me try to explain myself again, since I did it so poorly the first time. Wiccan. You know the word is misunderstood, that people equate it with satanism and witches. You know your co-workers became hostile when they discovered you were one. Yet you continue to use the term to describe yourself. Ditto with the word “pagan” which you use in the post above to describe yourself and your friends. Surely you know that the term “pagan” has negative connotations, esp. to Jews and Christians.
While I have gotten to know you through this board, and I know that you are a thoughtful, kind person, I wonder why you would constantly use these terms, terms that you know are laden, to describe yourself?
Take the next sentence as a friendly question, NOT an accusation: Do you enjoy being provocative? Seriously. Do you enjoy it?
If not, then why do you chose to provoke people with your words and actions? If you do, then it can help you understand why people act with hostility when you are around.
Lisa
Hey Beth, how good are you at the “look”? You know the one…when the person is spouting ignorance, and you thoughtfully look at them with a slight smile on your face. With this look on your face, you look like you are thinking, “You are the biggest asshole I have ever seen, and I am confused as to how you function in life”. Continue the look (stare) after he finishes speaking until he feels like the ass he is. I have mastered this technique and there is no question about taboo topics with me.
As far as in someone’s home, I’d just get up and leave the room. Go into the guest bedroom and read a book until the conversation is over. You are saying you don’t want to participate without offending your friends.
Good luck!!
Beth—have you ever tried to sit down with these people and explain your religion to them? “You might have misunderstood what a wiccan is . . .” Maybe they really do think you’re a baby-killin’ Satan worshipper. Or aren’t these the kind of people you can have a grown-up conversation with?
Personally, I would take their disapproval as a great compliment.
PunditLisa: The fact that the Christians killed every Wiccan they saw for hundreds of years does not invalidate it as a religion. EB can not be expected to not list herself as a religion she has every right to chose just because her co-workers gang up on her. If that provokes her co-workers, that is a problem with her co-workers and not with her.
EB: Terrorise them. Borrow a car and follow them home and then just keep driving. Let them overhear you on the phone talking about obtaining a suitable sacrifice etc. Ask 'em if they know anyone with live chickens ‘cause you need the blood. Make it uncomfortable for them to work with you and at least they will avoid ya’. Make 'em quit.
Seriously though, you could talk to the patients after these women do and ask them if they’d like to fill out a complaint form. I’m sure you’ll find some that aren’t quite happy about this sort of treatment. The wife of a friend of mine recently contracted TB from working in a blood lab. I’m guessing they’d come in and talk to her too.
Before you do any of this, go to your boss and tell her that the other women have something against you. Do the whole paranoia thing and then work it the other way.
Most importantly, keep us updated.
This looks Pit-bound. Or GD-bound.
Inertia, the fact that christians killed wiccans merely illustrates my point. You can’t get much more hostile than killing someone. A lot of people are fearful of wiccans because they equate them with devil worshipers. People fear evil, they fear the devil, they fear witches. To proclaim yourself to be a wiccan greatly increases the probability that people will meet you with hostility. Rightly or wrongly. Ditto for people who paint their nails black and wear “Marilyn Manson” t-shirts. It doesn’t mean you don’t have a right to do whatever you want or look however you want, it just means that a lot of people will not look past the black nails to discover the person underneath.
And ultimately beth has to decide if she really cares what these people think and if she wants to try and alleviate the problem. And if she DOES want the situation alleviated, aside from THEIR bevavior, is there some behavior on her part that she can change in order to work towards that goal? Maybe there is and maybe there isn’t. But it’s worth a look.
Lisa
I think that when inertia was advising Evilbeth to terrorize the Fundies, he was probably speaking pretty much tongue in cheek. At least, I’m assuming he was…
I personally wouldn’t advise it as a technique. Frighten a Fundie badly enough, and the next thing you know, there are villagers with torches breaking down your front door, like in the ending of every Frankenstein movie ever made. (figuratively speaking)
But you don’t want to open the legal can of worms called “harassment”, because, let’s face it, odds are that your lawyer, your judge, and all 12 people on the jury are going to be, if not actual Christians, at least nominal ones, and once they hear that buzzword, “witch”, your goose is cooked.
But I have to agree with PunditLisa. EB, you need to decide how badly you want to get along with these people. It’s your call.
Like I said, if I was in your shoes, and that badly outnumbered, I’d bail. But then I’m not a real combative person anyway.
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Let me explain again for those of you who did not seem to get it the first time–I do not “call” myself anything around these people. I do not refer to myself as Wiccan, pagan or a witch. I don’t discuss religion with them, save for the one time I tried to explain what Wicca truly is. (One woman had equated it with Satanism and I, seeing this as a golden opportunity, tried to explain the difference but was met with, “Call it whatever name you want but without Jesus it is Satanic.”)
My point on this thread was not to ask how to alleviate religious discrimination in the office–I know that is a losing battle and I just come in and do my work and leave–smiling the whole time. I only posted the information about the religious tension to illustrate that the work environment was not as friendly as it could be to start with and therefore made attempts at saying anything difficult. I’m not sure how this got sidetracked but I do appreciate all the positive advice that has been given.
PunditLisa–as for the present terminology describing my religious beliefs being “misunderstood”, “laden”, and “provocative”, exactly what do you propose I call my religion when asked about it? Should I just blush ashamedly and say, “I shouldn’t say. You wouldn’t approve,” or should I just make up an unpronounceable symbol like Prince so as not to offend anyone’s delicate sensibilities? As I have pointed out numerous times, *I do not call myself anything to my co-workers and I was not the one who told them what my religion was!*However, if they (or anyone else) asks me what religion I am, I will tell them. I will not hide who I am and what I believe simply because some samll-minded people choose to be ignorant and uneducated when it comes to ideas different than their own.
And so far as your assertion that I have “criticized them repeatedly for their religious beliefs”, I ask you to show me where. I have criticized them for passing judgement on individuals without knowing the full situation and unless I am reading my Bible incorrectly, Matthew 7:1 distinctly says, “Judge not, that ye be not judged”–yet that is exactly what they are doing. I don’t dislike or disrespect their religion. I admire any religion that teaches people to not judge others, treat others as you would have them treat you and to love your neighbor. However, I do take exception to people who claim to be such fervent believers in such a loving religion and yet say the horrible things they say.
“You don’t have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die.” --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!
A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I’ll ask for it!
And BTW, we are here (and I transfer it over to my personal life) to fight ignorance, not hide or kowtow to it.
“You don’t have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die.” --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!
A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I’ll ask for it!
**
If it’s any consolation, EB, this woman probably feels the same way about Jehovah’s Witnesses, Jews, Moslems, Hindus, and Buddhists, and she’s probably not too sure about the Catholics–or Episcopalians and Presbyterians, either, for that matter.
So you’re in good company, babe.
::: sigh ::: :rolleyes:
So many bigots, so little time…
“Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast!” - the White Queen
Beth, in my twenty years in the workplace, I have never been asked by anyone what my religion was. Admittedly I live under a rock, but I just consider that to be a rude question.
Should you hide your religion? That’s 100% your call. Should a gay person divulge his homosexuality proudly and risk alienating a whole bunch of his friends and co-workers? On principle the answer is a resounding yes. Stand tall and proud! In practice, it’s not that simple, as you have found out. As I’ve said before, each person has to decide what’s more important to them. Sometimes you can’t have both.
As far as evidence of your criticism of people for their religious beliefs, I was referring to your OP. Some fundamental christians and jews DO believe that homosexuality is a sin. Some think abortion, pre-marital sex, and even the pill go against God’s law. Ridiculous? Perhaps. But, regardless, that is their code of ethics. To criticize them based on their religious beliefs is just as intolerant as them ridiculing you based on yours. Yes, it’s petty of them to call people whores. But have you and your pagan friends ever gossiped in the breakroom about the “fundies”? If so, there’s room for improvement on both sides, IMO. That’s all I’m saying.
Lisa
Just say to them, “I fully support your right to worship as you wish. You don’t return the favor. That makes YOU The asshole.”
or
“Hey, could we not discuss this? I don’t like you.”
“Look, I’m flattered that you care, but stop, you offend me.”
“I don’t worship Satan. Go away.”
“Go away.”
“Heius omnus ur pluribum malifie tominei de cerebum.”
I sold my soul to Satan for a dollar. I got it in the mail.
I don’t know why I find this so funny but that is great! All my questions are answered! Thanks, Surgoshan! That sums it all up!
“You don’t have insurance? Well, just have a seat and someone will be with you after you die.” --Yes, another quality sig custom created by Wally!
A Jesusfied sig: Next time I covet thine opinion, I’ll ask for it!
I am posting this here too in case you don’t read it in the SDMB Pagan’s thread. I have been in many similar situations both with being gay and being Pagan.
It’s easy EvilBeth, you just tell them, “I don’t believe in your sky-god,” and if they insist that he is not then say, “his power comes from the heavens.” I have had that problem before. I went to a Catholic university and I can’t tell you how many times being a heathen got brought up. (For the record, I used to read Tarot for one of the nuns…she was AWESOME!) Anyway, tell them that you have been documenting all their harassment (you have, haven’t you) for X number of months and if they don’t stop you have more than sufficient evidence to take legal action . Since your boss hasn’t done anything to stop their harassment he will be held equally liable. Tell them that every time you even hear any conversation that even remotely involves you, Pagans, Gays, or other minorities in any type of negative sense that you write it down in a special notebook that you keep with you at all times. Then you actually have to start doing it. If they don’t shut up and leave you alone after that then you have to follow through and start submitting their harassment. If the HR department doesn’t do anything inform them that they are legally responsible to provide a workplace free from harassment and that your boss has not done anything then tell them if it happens again then you will be filing a lawsuit. I informed a coworker who kept saying nasty things about gays and me that every time I heard him say that, I made a note of it and showed him a log in a notebook (I also had it on my private email) and that if he didn’t stop I would send it to our HR department. It has not happened since then around me. He knows better now.
Funny, the one tactic that nobody ever thinks of to take care of these situations at work is, “Excuse me, I have work to do.”
If someone were passing homophobic or anti-Wiccan commentary at work… well, it depends. If they were just using a slur, I’d turn the joke back on them or (if I were feeling sour) just tell them that I’m gay or Pagan or that my mom is Asian or whatever and that I don’t appreciate that kind of remark.
If they actually expressed an opinion of some sort, I’d say in a friendly manner, “Well, I’m gay, and if you’re interested to hear the other side of that, I’d be pleased to discuss it with you after work.”
No question for me of not being out at work. Absolutely no question. If I can’t be out at work, I don’t want to work there. Fortunately I’m protected by human rights laws up here.