Terminator vs. Aliens

[Jophiel]

All of that would make the T-800 a very effective sniper. The Aliens would be looking for, essentially, a piece of metal in a ship full of pieces of metal. I don’t know exactly what spectrum Aliens see, but if they are seeing IR they are screwed: The T-800 would be the same temperature as the ambient air once its flesh was removed. The T-800 would just have to stand still, maybe hidden among scrap or ductwork, and the Aliens would most likely pass it by. That infinite patience, plus its deadly accuracy with gun-type weapons (and given that a full Marine armory would include some weapon accurate enough for sniper work), the T-800 would gain the upper hand assuming it wasn’t overwhelmed early on.

Oh, I agree that the T-800 would be able to do quite the number the the aliens. I’d guess the aliens would do a full assault because, well, what else are they going to do? It’s not like they can shoot back. Granted the first Alien was one in a ship of eight so it made more sense for it to hide 'n grab as it matured. The ones on Archeron (LV-426) were in defense of the homeland and well outnumbered the Marines so I’d guess they’d use the same tactics against the T-800 as they do there. Hell, the things ran full on into the robotic machine guns in the shafts in Aliens which, while it doesn’t say much about their common sense, gives credit to their single mindedness and self sacrifice when defending the hive. They gave up eventually, but they were giving up on that route, not on the intruders.

No idea on what spectrum the aliens see in and I’m not even going to guess. I’m not sure how visible the aliens will be motionless against the background of hardened mucous though on whatever spectrum or even if the aliens are warm blooded. I would think a motionless alien in one of the many niches would be pretty much invisible but once they’re moving they’d lose any element of suprise. Still, a T-800 has to weigh something with its dense armor and all and I’m sure the aliens would hear it clumping around (assuming the aliens hear better than we do which is a pretty safe guess since they hunt as a lifestyle). But if the T-800 made any attempt to remain motionless and hidden, it could pull it off I’m sure.

Any idea how the aliens communicate? I never saw Ressurection and paid good money to have A:3 purged from my mind so I don’t know if it ever came up. They don’t make much noise besides screaming when they’re shot and the queen did that whole “look at the guards and they back off” number when Ripley reached the hive and made her intentions to toast the eggs clear. Phermones? Telepathy? Subsonic speech? Body language? The answer may well say how well the aliens could coordinate an attack on the T-800.

Against any single or even group of aliens, I’d give it to the T-800. Against a hive, I’d say he falls under a whole lotta acidic alien corpses. I honestly doubt the aliens leave any large jars of lye around to neutralize their acids and the “worker/warrior” types don’t have any other goal in life beyond killing things or dying in the attempt.

[lno]

You were right the first time; Hudson spits down the hole, Hicks nudges him, Hudson says “Quit screwin’ around!”

The splash that Vasquez got in the air ducts missed her face entirely but ruined her legs to the extent that she could barely crawl.

Hicks had gotten a light splash (compare it to the heavy splash that Drake got just as everyone was evacuating into the APC) that still burned through his armor.

For the effects of a single drop or two in Aliens, Hudson had his forearm singed after he put the barrel of the shotgun into the alien’s mouth that was trying to force its way into the APC. He screamed like a little girl, and later is seen receiving medical attention for the burn.

Anyway, my opinion? It all depends on the setting. Everyone’s arguing about if the T-800 has weapons or if the aliens surprise him or if this or that. Depending on the circumstances, it’d go either way.

On preview, I see some more commentary by Jophiel…

The aliens aren’t warm-blooded. They don’t show up on infra-red at all. They may show up on another spectrum - if we use non-canon sources (assorted Aliens vs Predator books and games) then the aliens do stand out in certain ways. How they detect prey is up in the air, but it’s apparently not visually, or visually as we know it. Sound and smell and sensitivity to electromagnetic fields are the usual answers. Unless the T-800 is completely shut down, I doubt that it’d escape notice.

More non-canon sources (assorted books by Steve and Stephanie Perry - Earth Hive, et cetera) indicate that a queen has telepathic communication of a sort with the rest of the hive. Not necessarily control - but the individual aliens aren’t really individuals, anyway.

[Narile]

*Originally posted by lno *
**The aliens aren’t warm-blooded. They don’t show up on infra-red at all. They may show up on another spectrum - if we use non-canon sources (assorted Aliens vs Predator books and games) then the aliens do stand out in certain ways. How they detect prey is up in the air, but it’s apparently not visually, or visually as we know it. Sound and smell and sensitivity to electromagnetic fields are the usual answers. Unless the T-800 is completely shut down, I doubt that it’d escape notice.
**

I’m pretty sure it isn’t visually as we consider it, since, if I recall correctly, one of the main things R.Scott told Gieger when designing the aliens was ‘No Eyes.’

[msmith537]

*Originally posted by MGibson *
From what I saw in Alien and Aliens the blood of the xenomorph ate through several decks of metal. However we’re basing this debate on pure fiction so who can be right?
**

The general rules of most “who would win…” debates is that the normal laws of physics apply, unless they are overridden by the laws of physics from the movie. ie The Aliens blood ate through bulkhead plating (which we would assume is light and strong cause its on a spacecraft), body armor (which is probably ceramic or other synthetic) and maybe part of the APC (or Ripley could have “busted the trans-axil” with her driving) - therefore there is a strong likelyhood it would eat through a T-800.

Keep in mind the reason why the Aliens were so deadly:
Alien:
Six(?) crewmen armed with knives and blowtorches against a large, very strong, very hungry armored critter. How would you fare without weapons against an armor plated Tiger?

Aliens:
A dozen well armed marines, taken by surprise by 100s on Aliens, unable to use their weapons under the cooling tower. Once most of the marines were killed and their equipment blowd up, not much of a contest

Alien 3:
Once again, dozens of unarmed prisoners traped with one mean Alien.

Alien Resurection:
I don’t know.
By the way. I’m watching the Terminator right now on E! (of all channels). I hope he asks for the Phased Plasma rifle in the 40 watt range and the Uzi 9mm…oh there he goes:)

[Silentgoldfish]

What, pray tell, is a gorilla Alien?

[Muad_Dib]

Why would the T-800 appear at the same temp. as the ambient? Ask any computer geek about the need to cool down a CPU. How about the mechanical parts? Now I know that we are dealing with futuristic technology, but no matter how efficient, he would still give off heat.

Maybe if he had some sort of “low-power mode” where he could still monitor the situation but would have minimal heat radiation?

[Drastic]

Now I know that we are dealing with futuristic technology, but no matter how efficient, he would still give off heat.

I bet he’d give off right around 98.6 degrees of it, in fact. I guess you could argue that temperature would only radiate from the living tissue encasing the chassis, but I think that’s rather dubious–far better to purposefully design it with a core temperature of human normal, and efficient transfer so it’s a normal heat signature through that tissue. Depending on how efficient that transfer is, the core temp might even be higher.

[Boyo_Jim]

*Originally posted by Drastic *
**
I bet he’d give off right around 98.6 degrees of it, in fact. I guess you could argue that temperature would only radiate from the living tissue encasing the chassis, but I think that’s rather dubious–far better to purposefully design it with a core temperature of human normal, and efficient transfer so it’s a normal heat signature through that tissue. Depending on how efficient that transfer is, the core temp might even be higher. **

Absolutely! It’s a vehicle and a power generator. I guess you could stipulate to cold fusion power.

But I repeat my earlier comment, that in order to generate the result you want, you are simply applying the traits you desire to each combatant.

[Enola_Straight]

Indeed.

In my novelizations of the Terminator movies, the Terminator is
powered by a miniature nuclear power cell triple layered with the
densest alloy armor ever smelted.

[Chronos]

Quoth Lizard:

Eh, I’m with the OP on this one. I’m no chemist, but I think organic acids that can eat through dense metals are rare to impossible.

On the contrary: Most acids are more effective against metals than against organic materials, and especially so if the organic materials have evolved for the purpose of containing said acids. Hydrochloric, for instance, will (admittedly slowly) eat through most non-noble metals, but terrestrial vertabrates regularly keep the stuff in their stomachs without harm. Even if you get it on your skin, you’ve got several minutes to wash it off before it does any significant damage.

Now, the T-800 was designed for combat, and acidic weapons might possibly be used in the future, so it’s conceivable that the exoskeleton might have some sort of acid-resistant coating. Certainly, a terminator intended for a mission into xenomorph-infested territory would be modded with such. But there’s no indication from the movies that such is the case, and acid-resistant coatings aren’t much use unless you know you’re going up against acids (they tend to scratch or abrade off easily), so I think it’s safe to say that an off-the-shelf termie would be as vulnerable to Alien blood as a human, or more so.

Now, if we stipulate that the terminator had a chance to assess the situation and arm itself accordingly, then I’d still give the edge to the terminator. I presume that both sides would be able to detect each other in their accustomed manner (no reason to suppose otherwise), but the Terminator would be able to develop counterstrategies to the Aliens’ attacks. For instance, he could probably find enough glass in the ship to make an anti-acid shield, which he would bring to bear only when he’s getting splattered (so it doesn’t get broken by the Aliens’ physical attacks). And he would feel quite at home in a Marine armory.

One must also ask, by the way, what the Terminator’s mission is. If he’s just supposed to kill all humans in the area, he’d probably actually encourage the Aliens, and guide them to the soft targets first. After his mission is accomplished, it doesn’t matter what they do to him. If he’s to kill everything in the area, regardless of species, well then, it’s easy enough to kill everything on a spaceship, if you don’t mind dying in the process, yourself. And if he’s there specifically to exterminate aliens, and has no orders concerning any humans that might be present, well, we know that terminators are capable of working with others, if that’s consistent with their mission, so now it becomes Terminator + marines vs. aliens.

[Lizard]

*Originally posted by Narile *
**Contrary to Lizards statement, one troop of what 15 marines, vs 100 aliens would most likely lose in such close confines. Shoot as fast as you like, the wave washes over you and takes you out. The British found that out rather the hard way in Africa. Human(alien?) wave attacks are expensive in resources for the attacker, but if he can afford such losses and the defender can’t…well as the saying goes, the attacker needs only one win to win the war. Termie needs to be carefull to only meet up with small groups of aliens, then he wins, if they pin him down, or he meets up with 10 or more aliens…he loses. **

Oh, come on! You can’t possibly compare the British experience with the Zulus to this situatuion!
Fact #1: At the battle of Isandlwana the British soldiers were outnumbered about 15 to 1, and were only armed with single shot rifles. They were also fighting on open ground. Yet they still managed to inflict thousands of casualties.
Fact #2: At your stated ratio of 15 Marines to 100 Aliens, the Marines are outnumberd only 7 to 1, and they’re armed with automatic weapons that fire explosive rounds, to boot.
Fact #3: Fighting in close confines gives the advantage to an outnumbered defender, not the attacker. (Which is the exact opposite of what you said.) Greater numbers make no difference if there is no room to maneuver and the attacker is forced to launch their assault through a small area. Great firepower can simply be brought to bear on that area and annihilate anything there. Eventually the piled up bodies are simply a hindrance to the attacker. Remember the automatic machine guns in “Aliens”? You’ll note the creatures themselves stopped trying to charge them after dozen or so of their number had been mowed down, because it was absolutely hopeless.

A real-life example of how confined combat aids defenders is the Jewish uprising the Warsaw ghetto during WWII. A few thousand poorly armed Jews held off several times their number of well-armed German soldiers. The Germans were eventually forced to raze the ghetto building by building.
Or simply examine WWI. Human wave attacks were real popular then. Look what it achieved: millions dead on both sides and a battlefield statemate.

[Jophiel]

Remember the automatic machine guns in “Aliens”? You’ll note the creatures themselves stopped trying to charge them after dozen or so of their number had been mowed down, because it was absolutely hopeless

I was under the impression a lot more than a dozen aliens got mowed down (though they used a lot of cut scenes, showed the gun a lot and it was hard to tell). Didn’t each sentry have an A gun and a B gun, each with 500 rounds or so? That’s 2000 rounds fired (the last gun ended up with something like 15 rounds remaining). If the aliens were swarming up through the shafts, it sounds like a lot more than six aliens per sentry robot died. Or else the sentries are amazingly inefficient.

[lno]

A and B guns had 500 each, and they both ran dry and were overwhelmed. The aliens then started pounding at a pressure door. Later, they breached that and ran into guns C and D each with 500 as well. (Ripley: “How many?” Hicks: “I don’t know. Lots.”) D ran dry, C had 10 left when the aliens decided this wasn’t working. Hudson even said “Jesus, they’re wall-to-wall in there” and “it’s a shooting gallery down there” while watching on the closed-circuit camera. Probably a Whole Lotta Aliens.

[Drastic]

Definitely a Whole Lotta. From the size of the colony for hosts, and the sentry-gun slaughter, I wouldn’t be surprised if a third-to-half of the total hive got wiped out. (Supported by how relatively easy a trip Ripley had when she went down to get Newt.)

[lno]

Well, another factor in Ripley’s easy trip was that the rest of the hive was away attacking Operations, which she had just fled. Your estimates work for me, though.

Some back-of-the-envelope calculations, because I feel like it: Van Leuwen says “sixty, maybe seventy families”, and the billboard outside the colony in the next scene says “Hadley’s Hope: Pop. 158”. Excluding Newt and the woman found alive in the hive, we come up with 156 possible adult aliens. (The planet was a rock - no indigenous life - so we can safely assume that there were no viable hosts other than the colonists.) Say, about twenty killed while the marines fled the reactor room, and seventy killed at the sentry guns, that leaves ~60 to attack Operations (excluding the queen and a few guards kept behind).

Another, oh, two dozen killed (which feels like a very high estimate) as Our Stalwart Heroes retreated from Operations and through the ducts … 35 remaining alive which were probably racing back down to the hive as Ripley was racing back up from it.

I watch this movie way too often, I guess.

[Lizard]

*Originally posted by Jophiel *
**I was under the impression a lot more than a dozen aliens got mowed down (though they used a lot of cut scenes, showed the gun a lot and it was hard to tell). Didn’t each sentry have an A gun and a B gun, each with 500 rounds or so? That’s 2000 rounds fired (the last gun ended up with something like 15 rounds remaining). If the aliens were swarming up through the shafts, it sounds like a lot more than six aliens per sentry robot died. Or else the sentries are amazingly inefficient. **

Hey, is this stuff with the sentries only in the Director’s Cut? I saw this part in what I knew was the director’s cut years ago, and I haven’t seen it in any version I’ve watched of “Aliens” since.