Ah ,so “stay the course” is the best option.
The fact of the matter is that Daesh needs no other excuse than the opportunity to slaughter what they would likely refer to as “infidels”.
While there is obviously some sort of larger strategic objective with Daesh’ terror campaign, individual terrorist cells work independently and do not somehow report back to a centralized authority/general staff. They inflict harm on whomever they consider enemies of Daesh’ cause in whichever manner they consider most expedient.
Realistically I don’t think there’s a way to entirely prevent Daesh from killing 50-100 people every year if they’re committed to doing so without seriously infringing on civil rights - at least not in the short term. In the long term, I think the issue of radicalized Muslim youth can be fixed, but among other things it requires a willingness to engage in large-scale social projects and the forced dissolution of ghetto communities. A large part of the issue in Europe is that the parents of the generation that is now blowing itself up in airports and subways were never forced to integrate themselves properly into modern European society, and they have to some extent been allowed to create what is for all intents and purposes a parallel society - one that has severe issues with poverty and unemployment to boot.
Yes it is both these things.
It is their Takfiri ideology that the integration of the muslims into anything other than their vision of the pure islamic society is apostasy, so to them it is a Good Thing in their ideology to motivate an oppression and an alienation.
it is of course also a practical thing for them, to gain the disposable foreign youth for their cannon fodder purposes.
this is completely the rubbish.
FORCED?
Most of these youths are not observant.
It is not “forcing” integration, it is the question of addressing the long-documented gross discrimination in the job markets in the France and the Belgium against people with the “wrong names” - that is identifiably non christian names / non european names.
This has been documented again and again over the decades, to no real action by the governments, gross racial / ethnic discrimination in the job market that a blind eye is turned to. and then the blame is put on those who suffer from being called “dirty arab”
See BBC NEWS | Europe | French Muslims face job discrimination
but many solid statistical surveys done since the 1990s repeat again and again the lesson that to be identifiably non christian leads to active discrimination
But no, what is the solution? Oh it is the fault of them to have those names, they’re not integrating! Oh they wear the hidjab, we ban it… but is any action taken about identified job discrimination? No. The French state hides piously behind its slogans.
This. I’m not sure that I’d be quite as pessimistic as you about the prospects of addressing the problem - I think good police and intelligence work can achieve much - but essentially the condition which allows Da’esh terrorism to flourish in Europe in a way that it doesn’t in, say, the US is the presence, in Europe, of of a significant North African/Middle Eastern underclass that is socially alienated. That’s got to be addressed, and that’s a long-term project.
But no amount of boots on the ground in Syria or Iraq can tackle that. It makes no difference at all whether the boots are European or American.
There may be good reasons for confronting Da’esh in Syria. But the notion that this will be an effective response to Da’esh terrorism in Europe is not one of them.
Yes, of course. It’s not Islam which marginalises and alienates this community. But the fact is that they are marginalised and alienated (not least by idiocies like hijab-banning) and that creates fertile ground for extremism and, ultimately, terrorism.
The solution is to attack the gross job discrimination, a problem that has been identified again and again and again by the academic and the private studies since the early 1990s where to have the non christian name on the application or the CV is to reduce employment chances by very large percentages.
the reform of the labor codes is also needed, now they protect the very white labor elite of white men in their 50s+ with near inviolability and the youth struggle to get the long term contract, as the business rationally do not wish to hire CDI, and of course the youth of the 2nd, 3rd generations of immigration with the ‘wrong names’ and the 'wrong faces’suffer the most.
Forgive me if I came across as implying that European societies were not to a large degree at fault in the matter. I suppose the sentence “allowed to create a parallel society” was unfortunate in its construction - it was never meant to imply that the Muslim minority somehow needed to be culturally assimilated, which is a far cry from integration, nor was it meant to imply that the issues faced by these communities were somehow of their own doing.
Essentially, to illustrate my point with an anecdote:
In Denmark, we had a large wave of immigrant workers from Turkey throughout the 70s - immigration that was encouraged, mind you, because we needed the cheap manual labour. These immigrants were brought here, and then essentially left to their own designs. No real steps were taken to ensure that they learned the local language (much less their families) and a blind eye was essentially turned to the inevitable and somewhat predictable creation of ghettos. To show for it, we have an entire generation - and soon likely two - of their descendants that are caught between two cultures, do poorly in both school and in terms of entering the workforce, are overrepresented grossly in crime statistics, and who in general do not feel as if they have a rightful place in our modern society.
These problems are of our own doing as a society, as are the problems with immigrants in so many other European countries - the disgruntled, radicalized European youth is, to me, symptomatic of a systematic failure to deal adequately and respectfully with the integration of their parents in the first place. In no way was I attempting to point a finger at the minority communities who to a large degree are the victims of decades of wholly incompetent government policymaking and unwillingness to crack down on discrimination.
It is worth highlighting this as the disgusting victim blaming of the community entire feeds into the dangerous and the ignorant rhetoric
And of course just this last year yet another study by an independent think tank (the French government only responds by singing the lies of Egalité and how it is blind to difference…) shows again the active discrimination.
So enough of this ignorant easy hate-supporting discourse about ‘rejecting assimilation.’
You shouldn’t bring people into your country if you’re just going to hate them. Whose bright idea was it to allow that much immigration from a population the natives don’t like?
You make the issue simpler than it is. In the case of France and Belgium, the vast majority of immigrants and their descendants hail from the Maghreb and from other former colonies. I don’t pretend to be an expert on issues of French citizenship, but I imagine many were considered French citizens already and as such were not technically immigrants per se.
In the case of countries such as Germany and most of Scandinavia, many immigrants were originally encouraged to immigrate in the 70s because, as mentioned, they were needed. Others are war refugees. The real issue isn’t that they were allowed to immigrate in the first place so much as it’s the fact that many countries were simply content to expect that they would integrate well with little real help or attention, and no effort was made to crack down on thinly-veiled xenophobia because that would mean airing our dirty laundry.
Perhaps you Americans can answer the question for your black fellow citizens (or even answer it to the native americans).
Subjects. Never citizens, except the Algerian jews in the last days of the 2nd empire in a divide and conquer action.
Ah - that does make more sense than full citizenship, I suppose. Out of curiosity, would you happen to know how immigration regulations pertained to French subjects?
Careful with the term “victim blaming” here - that migh go both ways. After all your point seems to be that the Belgian and French societies - who have become vicims of terror attacks - are essentially to blame for that, because they are disadvantaging immigrants and their descendants at the job market.
Now, the discrimination at the job market is real and it is very much a problem. I also agree that it likely contributes to a situation in which extremism can grow. (I do not agree that it is the *only *reason for extremism.) But what do you suggest to do about it? After all, the employers who have shown reluctance to hire the fictional Ms. Diouf probably had a reason for that. What reason was that? Just unreflected xenophobia? To an extent, maybe. But certainly not exclusively. To solve the problems we have to address those reasons, and while some of these reasons certainly can be found on the employer’s side others may also lie with the real Ms. Dioufs. Only once we stop the finger pointing and get real about both sides of the coin we will achieve something.
Easy. native Americans were already here and we brought African-Americans here as slaves. Our racism problem was created by choices made in the 18th century and before. But we’ve never willingly imported groups that our citizens hated. And as Ramira’s cite pointed out, Muslims face worse discrimination than African-Americans in the US. That sounds like a problem that shouldn’t have been allowed to get to that point.
What about the US targets around the world don’t forget that one of the rumoured targets could be a cruise liner, how many 1,000’s of Americans on one of those?
America is no longer an island and her interests are open to attack just like anyone else
It is not American firepower that we need it is your intelligence services that is where the break down in mainland Europe is. To many political castles puffing their chests out causing divisions. In the UK we have learnt from experience and have a dam good team in place
Careful? No, this is my world, I have no need to be careful. I see it and live it.
No that was not my point, that is your gross straw man.
My response was to the victim blaming about the supposed fault of the immigration communities in non-integration, assertions often made.
The radicals murderous acts bear their own responsibility.
But if someone is going to trot out it is the fault of the ethnic community because non-integration they are blaming a victim.
For the French state to stop hiding behind pious declartions of blindness to its citizens race and religion and pass and enforce the laws and collect the official data to support the court enforcement of the equal access. The France hides behind the excuse of its terrible Vichy era behaviour towards the Jews in pretending this prevents them from these actions.
The French job market is highly subject to the state intervention, it is not some Anglosaxon supposed shyness about letting the market work that holds her back from action. It is self-deception and active lying.
There is the decades of statistical data (but collected privately because of the pieties of the French state) showing severe discrminatory behaviour across essentially all employer classes. And no action.
Not one person of the Non-Catholic French background is not aware of and does not feel this in their daily life.
Maybe. No certainly.
It is shown again and again - over DECADES of studies that the identical quality CV of the identical high quality background gets very significantly higher rejection (this is leaving aside the racial discriminaton in the job interview)
WHAT POSSIBLE DIFFERENCE?
Is it simply the Negrès don’t look like the white French? Oh but to give the French Catholic first name, suddenly we get somewhat better response for the same negrèsse…
Identical CVs from identical schools.
This type of study has been repeated ad nauseum in France for decades, and the results are the same. To have the name that says you are not a catholic French, actively lowers your job chances by 25-50%.
When people learn something of what they are talking about then maybe they can make valid opinions.
There was some kind of easier regime I recall in the 1950s-1960s but I do not know the details.