How Do Muslims 'Radicalize' Other Muslims In Western Europe?

Just one question that has me stumped, since the recent Muslim terrorist attacks, in Paris. The mastermind behind them was from Belgium (at this point, information is still coming in–but I think we can safely say that). In fact, he came from a Muslim enclave in Belgium, where many Muslims are born, and apparently soon “radicalized” into jihadist attacks. (At this point, I must say, that most Muslims are not at all like this yada yada yada. I say it with a little sarcasm. But it is true, you know.)

My question is, How do they radicalize people in Europe–esp. western Europe? I know in Germany, simply denying the Holocaust can get you 3 years in prison. And I assume the same is true in the rest of Europe. (I once read this story of an American in Sweden making the Nazi salute during a concert. He could have gotten up to 90 days in jail, according to the report.)

My point is, freedom of expression is very severely limited in western Europe. Much more so than in the USA, from what I have read and heard. (According to my law dictionary, the standard of proof in the US is “clear and present danger”. According to other sources, it’s “imminent lawlessness”. But in either case, it’s very loose here.)

So how do they do it there? Why don’t they get caught? And more importantly, Why aren’t they stopped, long before it gets to that point? I mean, France. They really respect the rule of law, over rights there. At least that is what I’ve always heard. Is that wrong?

:):):slight_smile:

How do you expect a state surveillance to capture every discussion between two brothers and another random person?

Freedom of expression is hardly “severely limited” even if it does not follow the american ideas…

The EU does not run a huge police state à la STASI.

I had been trying to find some satisfactory answers online as well and found a lot of guesswork and bias.

Take it for what its worth, but I found the Wikipedia entry on radicalization to be a decent “beginner’s summary.” Certainly not the last word, but it might be a good start.

In any case, the profile of the Belgians and the French seduced into the path of the DAESH is in majority youth, muslim, who have a history of petty crime or even serious crime and involvement in bad things, feeling they lost their way, followed by new converts who were then led into the Salafiste and the Takfiri thought by those promoting the idea it is the true and real and pure way.

This statement here from theFBI and the British intelligence conclusions is right for this kind of profile.

It is in any case already people who are on the margins of the correct society who have proven to be the most converted into the DAESH type way, and they are already living partly ‘underground.’

It is like asking why don’t the police catch all the Mafia…

Let’s see. Worst financial crisis in 9 decades and you are wondering why there is social unrest.

You’d be wrong. Holocaust denial is not against the law across Europe, just in select places. Things like a Nazi salute may come under laws regarding inciting racial hatred.

As an example, a teacher I had at nightschool here in Sweden (teaching me to use Photoshop) turned out to be a holocaust denial. He missed some of my lessons as he went to a Holocaust denial conference in Iran (a conference that I remember Jon Stewart talking about on The Daily Show) and he did a lecture there. I had a PDF of a paper he wrote somewhere, which was linked from his personal web space that he shared the URL to with us on the course.

Not only was this not illegal, but the school couldn’t sack him. I gather he had permission to miss those lessons and what he did in his free time was not illegal. So the unions had to discuss it with him to come up with some kind of arrangement to pay him off. It was quite a thing in the local press and there’s a short Wikipedia page about him:

And put through an automatic translator:
https://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fsv.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FJan_Bernhoff

First, this is absolutely ridiculous.

Actually, some have argued for decades that there’s too much freedom in Europe, especially as far as criminals and religious/political extremists are concerned. No cite, sorry, you’ll have to take the word of someone who’s lived here for 41 years and has heard the same BS forever and everywhere (“they have all the rights”, “they can say/dress/do whatever/however they please”, “try and say these sort of things in their countries”, “what we need is a dictator/a good old war/a police state”)

And by the way can you enlighten me on these ridiculous and sometimes violent controversies around the Pledge of Allegiance and the Flag of the United States?

To your questions, now.

As Ramira has said, you get some career criminals of muslim background who suddenly turn to religious terrorism both as a redemption (at least they are led to believe that) and a revenge against society which is, of course, seen as the source of all their problems. This change often happens in prison. There are dozens of such cases.

We had Sharia4Belgium all over the news in 2011-2012 IIRC. I saw a documentary about these clowns a couple of years ago. At one point, their leader says something like (quoting from memory): “Prison is best place to get new recruits because they’re all against the system there. Muslims, non-muslims. All against the system.”

So, angry, young people who feel, rightly or wrongly, marginalized or victimized, who do not fit in, end up having problems with the police and finally “see the light” that justifies their existence and punishes “bad society” which “never gave them a chance”.

The case of converts is more complicated but also more straightforward. Some converts feel that they have to prove that they have become “good muslims” and left behind the errors of their pasts. For the less bright of them, that means doing more than regular muslims do, just to show how pious they have become. From there, it’s slippery slope that can lead to Takfirism.

As noted, those enlisted by Daesh, (including those born Muslim and those born into Christian or non-practicing Christian homes), tend to be young people who have not grown up as believing Muslims. They tend to be kids who grew up with no specific religious beliefs, who are also at the periphery of society–lacking jobs, frequently from a group that suffers genuine or perceived persecution. Daesh recruitment offers stability, inclusion, support and related things that they do not find in society.
Note that the French “youth riots” of a couple of years ago were characterized as “Muslim” riots, yet the Mosques were condemning them and the kids were not generally attending mosques, anyway. This is the same disaffected group that provides the majority of the recruits, today. With the current economic situations, unemployment runs high and discrimination against kids with Arabic names is fairly blatant, preventing them from getting jobs. Many live in what, in the U.S., would be regarded as “the projects” where the police, (and society at large), are regarded as the enemy. This makes recruitment easier. As noted, quite a few the Daesh recruits have been disaffected Christians and people unaffiliated with any religion.
We saw similar events in the U.S. in the 1930s, where a lot of disaffected people were lured to Nazi and communist groups that promised better lives if they just joined together.

Your sarcasm is misplaced. Most practicing Muslims are, indeed, good citizens who are assimilating into society, not getting involved with crime, and do not share anything with the Daesh recruits beyond a label of"Muslim."

This is patently false. Most practicing Muslims, like most ISIS recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Koran, and to model their behavior on the example of Mohammed as recorded in Hadith. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of homophobia and of course anti-Semitism:

Mehdi Hasan:

Clearly a typical European Muslim is quite different in thought and deed than an ISIS recruit, but that doesn’t mean that the only thing they share is a label. Acknowledging these similarities is just as important as examining the differences, if the attempt is to put the brakes on the recruiting, rather than to simply continue polishing one’s halo by deflecting criticism from an ideology sacred to a pet minority.

Now that we have put that falsehood aside: I am mostly in agreement the assertion of Gary Brecker, that the reasons high numbers of fighters stream from certain European countries are not all that different from the reasons that young men have been so eager to leave the same shores to kill and die, over the centuries:

Most practicing Christians, like most KKK recruits, share a belief that it is their religious duty to follow the commandments laid down in the Bible, and to model their behavior on the example of Jesus Christ as recorded in New testament. In addition to this, or indeed as a result of this belief, they share high levels of homophobia and of course anti-Semitism.

Knowing that people are people, I strongly contest the idea that the average Muslim is more scrupulous in following his/her religion’s teachings than the average Christian.

And some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS.

And want a Christian version of Sharia law.

Well, then, what is your explanation for the high level of homophobia among Muslims? Surely you don’t think that some people are just naturally more inclined to hate gay people than others?

Pew:

[Living in fear: Egypt’s gay community](Living in fear: Egypt’s gay community)

The Truth Behind the Turkish Police Attack on Istanbul’s Gay Pride Parade

‘Gay Parties’ Raided In Saudi Arabia; Religious Police Arrest Several People On Suspicion Of Homosexuality

ISIS murders gay couple by throwing them off rooftop

Meanwhile in Alabama

Cite?

What percentage of the GOP voters do you suspect favor the death penalty for abandoning or blaspheming their religion, as opposed to those in favor of the protections granted by the First Amendment to freedom of speech and faith? Or favor stoning adulterers? Pew examines Muslim beliefs about these issues here.

I don’t see how this can not cause a person to be alarmed and concerned about the attitudes of Muslims towards crimes of consent and conscience, unless one harbors underlying bigotry that tolerates a Medieval mindset only when it’s victim is of some ‘other’ variety than themselves.

You certainly don’t have to go back seventeen years to find a gay victim of a hate crime in the US. If you are trying to set up some sort of equivalence, however, keep in mind that this is the kind of thing that nourishes the narrative of the Islamists, who portray the West as decadent, without morals, and hypocritical in our condemnation of their extreme, institutionalized misogyny and homophobia, utilizing incidents like the murder of Mathew Shepard.

Salon.

Washington Monthly

Forward Progressives

Addicting Info

What does homophobia and anti-Semitism (things that, as has been pointed out, are really, really common among Christians as well) have to do with the question in the OP?

Other than being a laughably transparent attempt to distract from the fact that the most likely candidates for radicalization among Muslims (to the point where jihadist groups prefer to target them for recruitment) are those Muslims that are the least religious, that is.

You know what else nourishes the narrative of the Islamists? Saying things like the members of ISIS are merely following their religion as it was intended to be followed.

Oh, and on the subject of blasphemy:

Hmm…what religion were the British colonial rulers, again?

And I’m sure that these people facing penalties and imprisonment under Greece’s blasphemy law are so glad that such things are merely a Muslim problem.

Your first citation merely shows an association between GOP candidates and a radio host who expressed those views. As despicable as the association is, it is not proof that “some of our GOP candidates share a desire to execute homosexuals just like ISIS.” The fact that this was an embarrassment, and that Huckabee, at least, felt the need to issue a press release claiming to be ignorant of the host’s statements, is a clue as to how marginal this extreme viewpoint is among GOP voters.

The rest of your sources discuss a return to Christian law generally, but say nothing about opinions on stoning adulterers specifically. One can assume that most of those in favor of this revival, whatever regressive nature it takes in their fantasy, does not include this barbaric punishment.

The Pew survey, however, asks specifically:

Again, this is a false equivalency, and is a betrayal of the victims of Islamist violence and oppression. There is a little bit of narcissism involved the reflex to always point out something about American politics, no matter what issue we are discussing, anywhere in the world, as if only our sins mattered.

He’s either a liar or he has the world’s most incompetent staff in vetting his appearances.
I’m going with liar.
From your Huckabee link.

Doesn’t sound the least bit remorseful.