This month’s Atlantic’s cover story emphasizes that Obama dislikes “free riders” and defines vital US interests somewhat more narrowly than some might. Doesn’t say he is unwilling to support/assist our allies, but questions the extent to which US ought to go it alone.
I take it you did not bother reading the links (no surprise there). The economic problems are those which are facing young people regardless of background not specific to “poor minorities”.
Young people in Europe have been and feel shafted. Dissatisfaction with the status quo is something which is widespread, not limited to one or any community. The near institutionalised discrimination and otherness are just a very rotten cherry on top. Integration in Europe is far less than the U.S.
Well - I do not know if I have “rambled”, but with a situation like this I find it usually too simple to put the blame squarely in one field. You disagree - fine.
Still - I really want to be constructive here - the problem needs to be solved. We seem to be in agreement that it is not a good situation when, given the choice between a Michel and an Abbas, employers will rarely hire the latter. However, I still do not understand what you suggest to do about it. Assume there is a baker who has an opening for a new apprentice, and the baker decides in favor of Michel over Abbas. Should Abbas be able to sue? On what grounds? Even if the baker was motivated by xenophobia that would be incredibly hard to prove. If I believed that laws could be effective in overcoming the problem, I would support them. I just don’t.
When the only commonality in the observed discrimination effect is to have the “non French catholic name” then we can put a blame very squarely for the effect.
and I do think that the anti-discrimination laws when the data is collected can be useful and effective. Not perfect of course, but useful and effective in the slow evolutionary change. The bakery, no that will not change easily.
The French hiring system is not like yours and is already subject to state coordination and intervention.
It doesn’t matter so much how religious the operatives are. They aren’t the ones who plan and direct the actions. But even then, you’re just arguing that the operatives were somewhat hypocritical in their adherence to radical religious beliefs, not that they still aren’t fanatics.
I probably was less clear than I could have been about US involvement, but yeah, I agree that “more bombing by the West” is not necessarily the answer. I don’t see how this craziness is fixed except by the regional powers themselves. Kerry is running around like crazy trying drum up support in the region, but perhaps the Europeans should be be taking the lead here.
John Mace people might not be observant or even religious, but they are often very strongly culturally inclined. Lake of observance should not be construed as lack of interest in perceived insults and dangers.
In my view, when people hold such ideas, especially young people, we’re in for some serious trouble in the future.
So, let’s fight ethnically-based discrimination when it comes to hiring people. It’s urgent, essential and ethical.
But Ramira, how do we deal with the hateful attitude described in the article? Do you agree it exists? Do you agree that it’s a real problem? Isn’t it equally urgent, essential and ethical?
My understanding is that in France, it’s often difficult to document discrimination in housing, the job market, or the numbers sent to prison due to France’s staunch “secularism”, which refuses to allow the government to keep such records.
Is that correct and do you know if that’s true in Belgium as well?
For thirty years there has not been any action on gross discrimination, only the usual francophone platitudes and philosophizing.
For thirty years study after study has demonstrated this discrimination, of course such students feel rejected and reject.
Otherwise there is not one PRACTICAL thing one does about mentalities in a immediate term
I focus on the practical, otherwise I would be writing philosophically about the Mentalité of the white French and Belgians and their mentalité of rejection of the Others who do not happen to have names like Marie-Claude or Jean-Marie…
The practical is to address the labor market dysfunctions and to address the obvious discrimination from the legal tools that are known already from the anglosaxons who have been more honest about racism and discrimination.
Otherwise we are chanting philosophizing nonsense.
It has nothing to do with so-called “secularism” and everything to do with the French self-deception on their , you can read this Brookings profile of 2001. Not a thing has really changed, it is still enough to talk big in fancy philosophizing but what has actually gotten legal action? Banning hidjabs and other actions more aimed at putting down any difference, but action on the well (but not government) documented discrimination in employment…? Crickets is your American expression.
And is it a wonder that the youth issued from the Maghrebine and the African immigration are alienated when the French state is more interested in its self-regarding theoretical discourse and the concrete actions seen are only to suppress and ban the cultural / religious expression considered “non French”?
We can have sterile philosophizing about the “attitudes” in the suburbs, and complain about the immigrant mama who does not speak the French, but until the ugly fact of active, gross discrimination in the employment market (heavily subject to state intervention so we can not say the government is somehow shy about this, and seeking to let the free market work…) and of course address as well the issues in labor policy that go beyond race and are more general to favoring the Labor Elite of white men in the 50s+ (hidden behind the nice socialist theoretical rhetoric), as M. Draghi has highlighted, it remains sterile and pointless.
the problem did not arise in a day.
it will not be solved in a day.
But the problem is one which would be a flesh wound if it were not for the festering gangrene of these issues.
of course this is exactly the Francophone problem.
Moan on about “attitudes” and civisism, about republican “values” and suppress the speech that is diskliked, but do not one practical thing about the discrimination. No that only gets ‘condemnation’ and hand wringing, and lofty dialogues.
OK, so the problem only comes from the French and Belgians. Totally one-sided. Not from the supremacist worldview that is spread in some Muslim families, which I have heard and even experienced more often than I care to remember. Not from the hateful, aggressive, conspirationist speeches that have been given in some mosques for decades all over the world - all well documented. Nope, no reponsability there at all.
Well, thank you Ramira. Now I know what I ought to think. Not about the real world of course but about you.
Well you should use all the straw used in that huge Straw Man to mop up the bullshit, as I did not say the problem only comes from the Belgians.
Not at all.
I said
But the changing of the HATE discourse and Supremacist world views of either the National Fronts or the seperating radicals among whatever ethnic immigrant community you feel like blaming is not a practical objective - and of course the Francophone habit of focusing on the speech and suppressing it, well that has worked SO WELL…
I focus on the key and single item that somehow the French and the Belgian governments can never quite ever get around to addressing, although they can get around to passing other laws. That is the labor market discrimination.
Your constructing of the typical STRAW MAN about this I note well.
Not at all? Are you sure? Looking through your posts I find no statement attributing blame to anyone but the Belgians or the “Francophones”. You have provided a lot of text, so I may have overlooked something. Could you point me to a post where you acknowledge that the blame is shared? Otherwise the statement of **Les Espaces Du Sommeil **would be everything but a strawman.
Returning to this article, since it is unlikely to be read, I quote this:
These are points I have noted many times, but let us have some Americans say them in this text…
The problem I have is the discourse, here, elsewhere immediately turns as it did here to pointing at the minority community and their blame for things. Oh and the terrible speech. and the attitudes.
But decade after decade a very significant factor, the gross discrimination in the job market is refused to be treated, indeed it is even refused to collect the official data that will officially unmask treating the problem.
Punishing some alienated little shit cretin of 14 years old for ‘supporting terrorism’ that the authorities are quite eager to do. Ban the hidjab for some mystical reason that is prevents an integration, oh yes we can pass such a law easily… and yes we will take actions to enforce it!
Take any practical measures to address the severe employment discrimination against the “Immigrant” (that is the visible and the obvious minority, even though she was born in the country and sometimes even her grand parents born in the country, still she is an “Immigrant” and not a “real French”
So what change in “Mentalities” is going to occur in this environment? What change in the mutual exlusion and the recriprocal supramcism is going to happen?
We can talk of anectdotes (and wring our hands about the immigrant mama who does not speak the good French, although why this is remarkable when we know from the Americans experience it is in fact very typical) and - but there is the Elephant of a single clear factor that remains unaddressed, which is within the realm of the practical policy action, which the anglosaxon governments have even shown the legal tools for.
No it is much better to talk about how the Immigrants (2nd/3rd generation) have bad attitudes. And ban hate speech, we can always ban hate speech.
I said many times there is not one single cause or blame and that I focused on the pragmatic action and issue not addressed yet.
You people post all the time on the evils of the poor minorities and blame the terrorism immediately on the non-integration, I do not feel I need to shower my posts with repetition of what you already say.