BTW, that was in response to Scylla, in case that isn’t completely clear.
They are. But, there’s a difference between stern and vengeful. Between defending the citizens of your country and waging a war of aggression.
Which is, yet again, not what I have said. I do defend and support military options. This is a time when they should be implemented.
You’ve specifically accused me specifically of wanting to act out of anger.I’ve specifically denied that accusation. When we repelled Iraq from Kuwait we did so not out of anger, but as a considered and appropriate response.
A reasoned perspective and a military response are not mutually exclusive, and I resent the repeated assumption that the one infers the other. It does not.
And a rather poor one for a person of your caliber, I think.
Sure it’s possible. I’d love to hear one. Make a suggestion along those lines that makes sense, and I’ll embrace it wholeheartedly.
Quite all right. In hindsight I should have just linked to it immediately and saved us both the bother (but I was feeling testy.)
Do you mean can I come up with a scenario such that direct militrary action is monumentally stupid? Hows about this current situation?
(With a thwack! the ball flys to Scylla’s side of the court)
By the way…
Nice backhand.
A “thwack?” That’s more like a “plop,”
Let me remind you for the 2nd time in this thread. We already tried being nice. Not taking Bin Laden seriously and doing something about him the first time he attacked the WTC, cost 6,000+ people their lives.
We’ve already tried ignoring him in the hopes he and people like him would go away and play nice. It didn’t work.
We have to stop him not out of retaliation, not out of anger, and not for revenge. We need to stop him so that he stops killing our citizens.
He said today that he is going to continue to do this wherever there are Americans and Jews. He is our sworn enemy and he wishes to destroy us by any means possible.
When somebody stabs you with a knife and raises their arm to do it again, you don’t make nice. You defend youself.
I’ve already made this point to you once in this thread, and you simply ignored it.
Having ignored my rebuttal, you make the very same argument again, as if it were some great revelation.
Thwack indeed.
This discussion lends itself to my thread “quite sane anti terrorist idea”. We absolutely must understand that that we are treading on the religious beliefs of these people simply by our presence. We must understand that the near entirity of our presence is for the sake of Oil. We must understand that the Koran will not be rewritten. Hence we will never be welcome in this region and we are doomed to continue the cycle of war after war after war…they will not surrender. The only real and lasting solution that will work for BOTH interest is the implementation of a long term plan for alternative energy procurement. When We don’t need oil…we leave the mid east and Israel can fight it’s own battles for once.
I always say “The squeaky wheel gets replaced”.
portajon:
Israel is our ally. Our friend. You don’t throw your allies and friends to the wolves. That’s not what the words “ally” and “friend” mean.
Please explain what it is that makes Israel our friend?
This is, I think the important point, along with related points brought up by elucidator and others.
As for the points in the OP, I must admit that I am simply and utterly amazed! Are you telling me that you think Osama bin Laden and his ilk did what they did out of the hope that the U.S. would say, “Really, now, we need to treat those Arabic countries with more respect; we need to work to reduce the poverty, inequality, and repessiveness that exist,…”? Are you fucking out of your mind? Sorry, but I really have to wonder! Do you think bin Laden and company want the U.S. to take away their recruits to terrorism? Do you think they want the U.S., in concert with the rest of the civilized world, to create the kind of stability and prosperity that will cause them to wither away into oblivion? The hell they do! They want the U.S. to do just the sort of things that some of those on this board who claim to be acting out of pure reason and rationality suggest that we do! They want the U.S. to bomb the fucking hell out of places like Afghanistan and create an us-against-them mentality throughout the Muslim world.
I’m not saying that we don’t need to pursue and punish those who are specifically responsible for this crime and those that specifically supported them and continue to do so now. But to do anything more than that is really playing right into their hands.
Wake up folks! We ain’t fighting World War II here. We are fighting against an enemy that lacks any military power and must rely on recruiting people who are so fanatically anti-American that they are willing to kill themselves just for the opportunity to take American lives with them. If we don’t try to understand the world situations that allows these groups to thrive and recruit members, then we are being ignorant in the most self-destructive sort of way.
Again I ask, what exactly is it that endears us to Israel? I am 31. Maybe some things happened long sgo that I don’t remember from history class.
I as well have no idea why we love Israel so much, at least not without resorting to some thought that might be considered anti-semitic (at least by Israel-supporters anyway).
portajon and eternal:
I don’t wish to get into a discussion of the US’s relationship with Israel here.
That’s it’s own discussion, and there have been several threads on the topic.
For simplicity you may consider my stance to be that for whatever reason, Israel is our ally, and we need to stand by our allies.
In your OP you make the case that you do not know or care why our enemy is our enemy…just that they are enemy. Now you offer no explanation as to why you defend Israel as our friend. This really leaves no logical conclusion except that you operate out of complete ignorance and simply choose to accept what ever statements support your cause without any regard to fact.
portajon:
Like I said:
I’m sorry you don’t like it, but it’s my opinion that US/Israeli relations are their own discussion, and not one that I have the time or inclination to go into now.
They are our ally. You don’t abandon your allies simply because it’s convenient or efficacious to do so. That stance should suffice for this thread, ok?
I think that jshore hits the nail on the head, although this ain’t the pit, so I don’t condone his abuse. I think between his point and that of Sterra, (namely that that it is worth finding out about the terrorists’ cause so that it can be denied them) there is not much left to say about the OP except maybe this:
In the OP you say:
.
And you go on to say, in effect, we should starve the terrorists of attention to their causes so that they get nothing out of their attacks. I agree as long as you are talking only about the terrorists themselves, although I do think that (as Sterra points out) there is a grave danger that through a lack of understanding of the terrorist’s goals, the US is potentially rushing into a direct fulfilment of them.
But when I (and I think most others that espouse this point of view) say we need to understand root causes and that these things don’t happen in a vacuum, I am (we are) talking about the need to understand the whole nations and bodies of ordinary citizens in the places where terrorists emanate. 99.9% of the ordinary citizens in those places do not support the terrorists in their midst, although they may have some vague sympathy with what they perceive to be their causes.
By understanding and doing something about the root causes, in sympathy with and to the benefit of the bodies of ordinary people from which terrorists come, you deprive terrorists of their recruiting grounds, you deprive them of the angry young men that can be moulded into suicide bombers, and in short deprive them of the power to pursue their extremist cause
I don’t think you should be too quick to assume that by doing so you would be fulfilling the actual goals of the homicidal maniacs behind 11 September.
Sorry, in my third paragraph, that should be “(as jshore points out)”
This is a debate right? Under the pretense that ignorance is best and that you don’t care to know what your enemies motivation is. However, we can not claim ignorance because the terrorist actions are precipitous of our actions, our beliefs, our government and its POLICIES, and our way of life in general. It is impossible to be ignorant of own actions now isn’t it? For these reasons I call into question one of the very motivations you wish to be ignorant of, our support of Israel. Obviously you are NOT AT ALL ignorant of these policies. If I knew as much as you about the real reasons we support Isreal, I would probably want to claim ignorance too.
Yes…sorry about the “out of your mind” comment. I did lose it a bit…It is just sort of frustrating to see people who I know are intelligent coming up with ideas that, followed to their logical conclusions, are frankly quite wacky and exactly backward of what I think the reality of the situation is. Anyway, I will try to express that I little less severely in the future.