Al-Qaeda blamed for Bali bombing
Well maybe
This link and this one might go a little way in explaining just how difficult the way ahead is going to be. I wish I could be more confident than I am that the Indonesians can deal with this effectively, but we are just going to have to make sure that we do everything we can to keep these terrorists out of our country. I heard a report that Abu Bakar Bashir has previously made fundraising/recruiting visits to Australia, which disturbs me no end. Anyone got any factual links on that? I haven’t been able to find any.
I disagree. Intolerance on a broad scale supports these people and keeps them hidden. You think that these people would not have been found already if not for sympathetic Indonesians who cannot empathise with Westerners? Or that the terrorists themselves were brought up without poison in their ear about the decadence of Western culture? Of course lack of understanding and intolerance is the cause of this. Perhaps if they had been exposed to more of the world they would have still gone on and murdered people (or perhaps not) for another pointless reason, but they mightn’t have done it to the greater glory of Islam uber alles (assuming that Islamicists and not Indonesian nationalists are actually responsible for this).
As for **the Loaded Dog’s **comments…it reminds me of the anti-apologist rhetoric swill published in Australia in a book called “Blaming Ourselves: September 1 and the Agony of the Left.” Who needs an understanding of cause and future prevention when you can just kill the arseholes, right, Dog? Deep insight might be too tricky for you, but at least some of us would actually like to know what can be done to prevent or deter this sort of thing from happening in the future without the simple minded option of avenging the dead and maimed with all guns blazing.
Its this sort of thinking, the cycle of violence, that manifests itself as the vengeful stupidity that we see in Israel. Don’t think for a moment that you speak for Australians if you’d have us buy into that destructive idiocy.
Western culture is characterised by, amongst other things, the rule of law and respect for human life. Find these people and try them fairly, and if they’re guilty, gaol them. Have Western culture triumph over them, not take their lives and make them martyrs to Islam, and in doing so, undermine our own principles and values.
Granted, and if somehow Osama Bin Laden (or the guys responsible for the Bali atrocity) were to find themselves in custody, I’d be happy to simply say, “let them have their day in court.” (BTW, I’m opposed to the death penalty).
Trouble is, I keep having this nagging feeling that we seem to be at war. So what do we do? More dialogue? Feeble diplomatic solutions? Hamstrung resolutions? Somehow I think not.
That was my reaction. (It was, in fact, my reaction to 9/11 here in the US, the government and public sentiment of which had swung way over towards isolationism until some extremist jingo decided to attack us).
So here’s Australia, nominally supportive of GWB’s “we gotta attack Iraq” initiative but not, I gather, without some grumbling among the populace. So, uhh, let’s attack a bunch of them and that’ll cause the Aussies to say “Oh, I guess we should back off, we have offended someone and they have killed us in response” ?? I don’t think so!
And how about Bali? I would think a much larger portion of the largely unaligned world is not to keen about having folks like this on their soil. Yesterday I was thinking GWB was the stupid one, welding the Islamic peoples into a united front by insisting on attacking Iraq. But there were a lot of Balinese folks killed, not to mention what this is going to do to their economy.
I am so sorry for all of you that you have to be going through this. You were all there for us (appreciative NYC resident speaking) and if there are ways we can be there for you we will do our best to follow your example.
Sometimes the “cycle of violence” has to be ended with the destruction of the side that simply won’t conduct itself in a manner compatible with civilized existence. That’s why Naziism is now represented by a few dozen clowns who would have been sent to the camps as genetic defectives by any real Nazi state.
I’d like to take this moment to express my heartfelt condolences to all who have been touched by this unconsionable act. It is easy to understand your loss and to feel a small part of what I’m sure many of you are feeling.
Please know that my thoughts go out to you in particular, people of Australia. I want you to know that I am one of your countless friends and admirers, and I stand beside you as I always have and always will.
Like who? What is “the side”? Is Hamas the side, or the Palestinians? Is the Abu Sayyaf a side, or the Moro Muslims? ETA or the Basques? Do you destroy the people with a legitimate or at least semi-legitimate grievance, or the people who are consumed by it and drive themselves to violence?
I have no issue with bringing terrorists to justice. I have an issue who short-sightedly think their “destruction” or the destruction of their culture or people is the beginning and end of it, and has no consequences.
The Loaded Dog writes:
So if we are at war, who do you attack? The Taleban are gone. The Palestinians don’t have a sovereign state to attack. Saudi Arabia, since it seems to be spawning not a few of these people?
Its just not that simple.
Like who? What is “the side”? Is Hamas the side, or the Palestinians? Is the Abu Sayyaf a side, or the Moro Muslims? ETA or the Basques? Do you destroy the people with a legitimate or at least semi-legitimate grievance, or the people who are consumed by it and drive themselves to violence?
I have no issue with bringing terrorists to justice. I have an issue who short-sightedly think their “destruction” or the destruction of their culture or people is the beginning and end of it, and has no consequences.
The Loaded Dog writes:
So if we are at war, who do you attack? The Taleban are gone. The Palestinians don’t have a sovereign state to attack. Saudi Arabia, since it seems to be spawning not a few of these people?
Its just not that simple.
Like who? What is “the side”? Is Hamas the side, or the Palestinians? Is the Abu Sayyaf a side, or the Moro Muslims? ETA or the Basques? Do you destroy the people with a legitimate or at least semi-legitimate grievance, or the people who are consumed by it and drive themselves to violence?
I have no issue with bringing terrorists to justice. I have an issue who short-sightedly think their “destruction” or the destruction of their culture or people is the beginning and end of it, and has no consequences.
The Loaded Dog writes:
So if we are at war, who do you attack? The Taleban are gone. The Palestinians don’t have a sovereign state to attack. Saudi Arabia, since it seems to be spawning not a few of these people?
Its just not that simple.
From way back up there: Ah, okay. I just wanted to make it clear you didn’t mean people with brown skin, or something like that. I agree with you on that level, but not on how to get rid of it.
And, thanks, I’m loving these boards already.
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Yay! Another “let’s understand” poster, just what we need. :rolleyes:
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Yay! Another “let’s understand” poster, just what we need. :rolleyes:
Reports now comming in that a former Indonesian Airforce Officer has admitted making the bomb. He is said to be having major regrets after not realising so many peope would be killed.
Prick.
Today was the first time I have seen a news presenter having trouble keeping it together.
http://onenews.nzoom.com/onenews_detail/0,1227,139462-1-9,00.html
If you have a problem, take it to the Pit. Alternatively, you could actually try to mount a rational debate, if you’re capable. Otherwise, I won’t waste my time with you.
a close friend has lost someone very dear to her. he was british.
this is a fairly big blow internationally.
i don’t think you persuade people who are bombing you because of your perceived imperialist attitudes that their opinion is flawed by retaliating.
you have to educate, show compassion, and in general do everything to stop their grass roots support by showing the world that you are JUST and RIGHT and that the terrorists are UNJUSTLY and WRONGLY targeting innocents.
if you decide to bomb/attack people because of their nationality (iraqi) or ethnicity (arab) you simply make the terrorists and their supporters more fanatical and determined to bring judgement to the west.
that’s something i’ve learned living in northern ireland. tit-for -tat and retaliatory attack do more harm then good. no exceptions.
I agree with you irishgirl, and although it might not seem so from this thread, I also have a great deal of sympathy for Dave Stewart’s points. Yet, I don’t think it is possible to draw an accurate comparison between the Bali incident/Sept 11 etc, and Northern Ireland or Israel/Palestine.
The Irish and Israeli situations have given us, especially those of us not close to the issues (as well as intelligent folk like you irishgirl who obviously are), a very clear lesson in the futility of tit-for-tat violence.
But Ireland and Israel are as relatively simple as they are difficult to solve. The problems also tend to be restricted to small geographical areas.
This is different. NYC then Bali? Whodathunkit? It’s possible I am wrong in connecting the two events. Therein lies the problem. Face it guys, we just don’t know! We have been thrust into a world in which there is no longer anywhere safe (as traditional “lifeboats” such as Australia and Finland have discovered), what do we do?
We can pursue diplomatic solutions, but that can take weeks, months, or years. We can try to adress the causes of global poverty, repression and disadvantage, but that can take a lifetime or more. The terrorist groups, on the other hand, are highly fluid and decentralised. They are going to continue killing innocent people. I’m not naturally hawkish, and I’m aware of the immense problems, both long and short term, which military action will cause, but I can’t see an alternative. Diplomatic and economic options should of course still be considered and pursued, but the only way we can have at least a hope of slowing terrorism down is to operate within the relatively short timeframes in which they themselves operate.
Specific operations against specific terrorists. They might not work. The targets may well escape. But this new, ugly world now seems like it’s here to stay, and attempting to neutralise terrorism cell by cell seems like the best, if imperfect, option.
Loaded Dog - this is an argument I can appreciate. I am not saying we should hug these people and sing “Kum-bah-yah”. I’d love to see them brought to justice. But its justice I want: not vicarious ejaculation through firearms.
I want them captured and tried, not killed.
I want them to have a fair forum where they can speak their minds, like Milosevic, and be shown to be unworthy of respect by their peers and sympathisers, and any admiration for them shattered. (I’d love for them to be tried under sharia law and found guilty, but I think I’d be asking for too much with that one.)
I want no martyrs or religious heroes: I want the falsehood of their actions and their logic to be patently clear to any would-be emulators.
And if they are guilty, I want them to rot in prison until they are feeble old men.
And I want this because it shows them the system which they would undermine is impervious to them.
And I’d like any genuine grievances, presented by moderates and not terrorists or terrorists masquerading as politicians, to be addressed and aired in order to avoid this sort of entirely and literally unnecessary violence. The thing about al Qaeda terrorism which makes me shake my head is this: The apparent and reported reason (before some popularist revisionism which suddenly included Palestine) why Osama bin Laden organised the 11 Sept attacks is because he wanted American troops off Saudi soil (the home of Mecca and Medina). Americans were seriously thinking about moving the bases out of Saudi Arabia anyway, prior to the attacks. Now they can’t do it because it would look like they were caving into terrorism. Future generations will think us - all of us- a bunch of fucking dickheads.
I read somewhere that the Australian media has identified his confession as false, though. Where, I don’t remember, but I’ll try.
Sorry for the double post, it was the hamsters, not an attack. That said, there’s not much left to debate that hasn’t already been done before. As others have quite clearly pointed out, the only reason to try to “understand” terrorists is so that we can find them and eliminate them.