The price of Model 3s was just cut by $1,100, so now the mid-range starts at $42,900. That’s a price I just might be able to swing, but I’m definitely going to test drive the other EVs that will be available this summer when my lease is up.
That’s definitely getting to be a reasonable price. Which others are you looking at? Presumably, the Bolt, the Hyundai Kona, and the Kia Niro at least (I’m assuming the Taycan is not on your radar :)). Haven’t really looked into whether the latter two are expected to be available in DC.
Yes, the Bolt and the Kona are the main ones. I like the pics of the Kona a lot, but I’m concerned the back seat may be too tight. But all things being equal, I’d prefer a small SUV/crossover type of body.
I’m not really into the Niro, but it also seems to be getting good reviews so I’ll drive it and see.
I’ve talked to dealerships and both the Kona and Niro are expected in Maryland (a ZEV state) in April.
For those interested in how the Model 3 performs in cold weather, an owner just posted a review on the r/Saskatoon subreddit. And by cold, I mean for the past several days we’ve had nightime lows near -40 and daytime highs in the -25C to -30C range. tl:dr summary - about 70% normal range and no trouble with cabin heat.
Was the 30% reduction due to the cells under-performing, like old-fashioned lead-acid batteries* or were the watts sucked away by the heater?
*I remember this Canadian battery ad where they bragged about their cold starting performance.
On my i3, in temps below 30 I get about 65% of my range in good weather, due both to using the heater and the impact on the chemistry of the batteries.
There are a few EVs that have heat pumps, and they probably do a little bit better in cold weather due to the more efficient heating.
It’s both. He actually says he gets less than 70% in city driving, which would be because the average speed is less and hence more time spent running the heater per km traveled. Of course if you’re just doing a commute in a city the size of Saskatoon you’re not going to be concerned about the range reduction in the first place.
While much is made of this range reduction, I rarely hear mentioned the flip side - with IC cars in temperatures approaching -40 there’s a very real concern that the engine won’t start without a block heater having been plugged in. Your EV might have less range, but you can be confident that it’s at least going to move.
Semi-true. In extreme cold the batteries make less current available to the drivetrain and they accept a lot less current. So the car will move, but not with the performance it normally has.
So moving slowly is the same as not moving at all? That makes no sense.
Also, range reduction in an IC car is a very real thing at these temps even if it does start. My Subaru would easily get 600 km on a full tank in the summer, I’d be lucky to get 450 in the winter months on the same driving pattern.
Nothing works properly at -40. It’s just a question of how it doesn’t work properly. In an IC car, that’s potential failure to start, zero cabin heat until the engine warms up, automatic transmission reluctant or flat refusing to shift until its oil is warmed up. Also heavy inputs for steering and braking, rock hard suspension, and square tires, but I would assume these would also be true of an EV. If you’ve lived through -40 cold snaps you’ll understand when I say I really don’t care if the car has less power available and might not have regenerative braking working if I’m guaranteed it will “start” after being parked on the street for several hours and be able to blast heat out the vents the moment I get in the car.
Hell, I’ve never been at -40 degrees but I remember a morning in Maine where the radio station 30 miles away was reporting -10 (I think it was a little colder where I was) and the stiff grease on the door hinges made it difficult to get it open. I can only imagine how at -40 something working is like a dancing dog – it’s not so important that it dances well but rather that it dances at all.
What happens to an EV if it sits out in the cold unplugged?
The batteries get cold. Also the car does have a standby draw that slows drains charge, it depends on the EV model but I’ve heard it can be 30 watts for a Tesla. (so it would lose about .75 kWh out of the 65 kWh capacity per day).
Batteries themselves also self-discharge a little bit, depends on the cell chemistry.
Cold batteries perform poorly. So when you get into the vehicle it then needs time to warm up before the vehicle has full performance available. And this warming up sucks power.
What this means is that if the car’s batteries are nearly flat, it is a supremely bad idea to park the car in the cold and leave it. Lithium batteries are actively being destroyed over time when they are under about 20% charge, and on top of that when the batteries are very low and you leave it parked, you are making the destruction worse. And when you go to start the vehicle up again, you are going to eat into the last drops of power just to warm your batteries up.
Furthermore, it seems that the standby drain is about twice as bad in cold weather, possibly due to the batteries being inefficient when they are cold (they have higher resistance in the circuit). So instead of drawing 30 watts at standby it’s drawing about 60.
Anyways, all these problems are easily avoided…if your parking space has a plug. Even a 15 amp/120 volt plug. Unfortunately for us apartment and condo dwellers, the EV revolution is going to be a bit delayed as a result of this problem.
When the battery is cold regeneration is limited, and if it is cold enough power delivery can also be limited. The Model 3 shows this as dots on the power line, so for example something like:
......................_____^_______________....
To left of center the solid line represents how much regen is available, and to the right it represents how much power delivery is available. I’ve only driven in temperatures down to 0F, and I’ve only ever seen a few dots of reduced power. A few dots of reduction would only be noticeable on a drag strip, really. The number of dots is also depended on the level of charge. For example, at 70% charge I might lose 90% of my regen at 30F, but at 30% charge at 30F I might only lose 10% of my regen. I’ve just made those numbers up, but it is a multi-dimensional relationship between regen, temperature, and state of charge.
The other thing that happens is “snow flake mode” in which some of the batteries charge is not available because of the low temperature. This is represented by a snow flake next to the battery level indicator, and a blue area of the battery on the charging screen. Functionally, it means reduced range. So, 10% of the battery might be blue, but when the battery warms up that 10% will be available for use—it isn’t discharged, just reserved.
Is that a six year old article? The current wisdom from Tesla is that using the battery until it is almost completely discharged is not a problem, and letting it sit at a low charge is only a problem in so much as you won’t be able to go very far until it charges. The big damage to battery chemistry happens when holding the battery at 100% charge for an extended period of time. Don’t worry about charging to 100% the night before a trip, but don’t charge to 100% as standard procedure. Even charging to 90% will make negligible differences on the battery lifetime. I usually charge to 75%.
If set to charge to 80%, the car will charge that high. It will let the charge drop to 75% or something before it starts to charge again. It won’t draw power continuously to stay at 80%. As Musk tweets though, a happy Tesla is a plugged in Tesla.
My first article was from 2018. It does lose charge just sitting somewhere. Apparently about 1% of the range per day in the model 3.
And at about twice the rate or higher (2.3% per day) if parked in the cold.
So yeah, better plug it in. And don’t buy one if you don’t have normal access to a plug.
Sounds like great care is needed in extreme cold to avoid damaging an EV battery. Just have to hope you don’t lose power.
a reason to add to the list for buying an emergency generator.
No need for that, it just means don’t go on a long trip, come all the way back, park outside, and not plug in.
One or two excursions to low charge levels won’t kill it. And also you do need a plug. Either you need one at your apartment or at work or at your house if you have one. Until then, the best you can do is buy a hybrid.
I’ve seen nothing to indicate “great care” is needed to avoid damaging an EV battery in the cold. Either in this thread or elsewhere.
Once again, when EVs are the topic, you seem to have your conclusion pre-made.
Test drove a 3 a bit ago. That regen is more aggressive than my braking usually is!
Serious question - it slows the car down pretty fast and as it is not braking does so without brake lights coming on. Any reports of that causing any problems? (Getting rear ended as a result.)