Thanks a lot, Republican party.....

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Bush, Cheney, et al. are not morons. They may not be rocket scientists either, but their whole approach to governance is to assume that we are the morons. On average, at least. And so far, evidence suggests they’re not wrong.
[/QUOTE]

You know, I think the “Bush is stupid” meme is an act of denial, because we don’t really want to believe that someone who appeared trustworthy enough to get roughly 50% of the country to vote for him twice can actually be a sociopath who doesn’t really care about anything except making himself and his corporate buddies as much money as humanly possible off the sweat, taxes and lives of the American population. We especially don’t want to believe that such a person would deliberately send American soldiers to die in the desert for the sake of holding open some kind of libertarian paradise in which American security and construction services companies hoover in as much American tax money as possible as quickly as possible.

It’s just too enormous a betrayal of the American trust in the president to contemplate. So we go the stupid route…Bush is stupid, being manipulated by his advisors and Cheney. Not true…

22

[QUOTE=jayjay]
You know, I think the “Bush is stupid” meme is an act of denial, because we don’t really want to believe that someone who appeared trustworthy enough to get roughly 50% of the country to vote for him twice can actually be a sociopath who doesn’t really care about anything except making himself and his corporate buddies as much money as humanly possible off the sweat, taxes and lives of the American population. We especially don’t want to believe that such a person would deliberately send American soldiers to die in the desert for the sake of holding open some kind of libertarian paradise in which American security and construction services companies hoover in as much American tax money as possible as quickly as possible.

It’s just too enormous a betrayal of the American trust in the president to contemplate. So we go the stupid route…Bush is stupid, being manipulated by his advisors and Cheney. Not true…
[/QUOTE]

Even though I consider myself a Republican (actually an Independednt leaning towards old-school Pubbie values), the only Republican I have voted for since I’ve been old enough to vote was Bush 1, I never liked Dubya, never trusted him or Cheney, saw through what I thought was their transparently obvious evilness, I voted against Dubya in both elections he ran in, I knew he was untrustworthy, but I never expected him to bring the country as low as it has been, to exponentially increase our debt, and get us into a long, protracted “war” sold to us on false pretenses, he’s failed all the requirements of being a traditional Old-Schooler

Keep government small? FAIL!
Reduce goverment spending? DOUBLE FAIL!
Keep government out of peoples lives and homes? TRIPLE FAIL!
Maintain a strong, DEFENSIVE millitary? QUADRUPLE FAIL!

he may not be “stupid” per se, but he sure doesn’t speak for my family, long time old-school Republicans, Dubya has done more to damage the Republican party than I could ever have imagined, and the sad thing is, I can kinda’ see Dad’s point that there’s no one that speaks for our family, so why bother voting, we’re not represented anyway

OTOH, this election is arguably one of the most important elections yet, at least in my time, the damage caused by the Bushites is critical, but not terminal, and must be repaired, I cannot, in good conscience, sit this one out, we need to rebuild this country, and I’ve come to the sad conclusion that that means that I may have to swallow my pride, and vote for the candidate that can best start the healing process, regardless of political affiliation, it sure as hell ain’t Hillary, and no way in Hell is it John “Dubya Rev. 2; four more years of the same crap” McCain…

That settles it, I’m voting for Ralph Wiggum, at least he’s honest…

23

[QUOTE=Little Nemo]
A question for MacTech. I can certainly see a Republican being disgusted with the effect Bush has had on the GOP (that’s pretty much my own situation) but I don’t understand your father’s attitude. You say he’s a lifelong Republican who’s considering not voting for the first time. So he must have voted for Bush and Cheney in 2004. Quite frankly, I haven’t seen any surprises in Bush’s second term - everything he’s done was readily foreseeable when he ran for re-election. So if your father’s so disgusted with Bush that he won’t vote for McCain, why didn’t he not vote for Bush?
[/QUOTE]

simply put, to Dad, a Democratic President (and Congress and Representatives) means that we’ll be taxed to death, to the point of screaming, Dad’s view is Democrats=Tax-And-Spend policies and “nannystating” us to oblivion

24

[QUOTE=begbert2]
Here’s question: why hasn’t the republican party stepped back and, noticing the rather terrible reviews it’s getting, denounced Bush/Cheney/the neo-con agenda? Are they that dedicated to the cause? Are they that infected with committed neo-cons that clearer heads couldn’t take control of the party? Are they that afraid of his presidential power, that he could strike at them with all of congress opposing him? What?
[/QUOTE]

Power. The most corrupt and self serving have seized control and have most of the money. If an attempt is made to oust them from power it’s likely those making the attempt would be ousted instead. Still, Bush and cronies have definitely exposed their black hearts so that more and more average republican citizens are disgusted with them. Something needs to change. I think now might be our best chance to date to change how things are done if we stay focused. There’s plenty of corruption and paid for politicians in the Dems that need changing as well.

25

[QUOTE=MacTech]
simply put, to Dad, a Democratic President (and Congress and Representatives) means that we’ll be taxed to death, to the point of screaming, Dad’s view is Democrats=Tax-And-Spend policies and “nannystating” us to oblivion
[/QUOTE]

So, he like the no-tax and spend policies better?

I was a Republican for 38 years. My first presidential election was 1972, and I voted for a Republican or no one ever since, until 2000 that is. (I have a visceral hatred of Shrub, showing that I am a good judge of character.) I worked for the Conservative party of NY in 1966 and 1968. Two years ago, I switched to being a Democrat. Quite frankly, I consider it immoral to be a member of a party which supports torture and unprovoked attacks. Republican economic policy is clearly a disaster, as we now see all too clearly. Come on over, you’ll feel a lot better. I do.

BTW, 2004 does not indicate that Bush isn’t stupid - or worse, intellectually lazy. It just shows that Rove isn’t stupid, but we know that.

26

[QUOTE=Cervaise]
Bush, Cheney, et al. are not morons. They may not be rocket scientists either, but their whole approach to governance is to assume that we are the morons. On average, at least. And so far, evidence suggests they’re not wrong.
[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. “Moron” was a poor choice of word on my part.

I actually think Bush and Cheney have been quite effective … at funnelling lots of money to big corporations and a tiny superwealthy minority. If they were truely morons they couldn’t do that.

The modern Republican Party is a scam. It’s been a scam since Reagan. They talk a lot about smaller government and individual rights to get the libertarian wing to the polls. And they also talk a lot about values and morality to get the fundamentalist wing to the polls. But when they’re in office the only constitutency that gets served is big money. Most Republican voters are being played for fools and its been that way for years.

27

[QUOTE=jayjay]
Nah. It’s just something they don’t care about because they’ll all be dead by the time the bill comes due and they have absolutely no sense of responsibility to anything but their own aggrandizement and (literal) enrichment.
[/QUOTE]

Or maybe at least some of them are certain that “the end of days” is near. If the apocalypse is nigh no one would ever have to pay the national debt.

At the very least, the possibility of such thinking is another reason to be wary of religious types in politics.

28

I feel your pain, I really do. When I first registered to vote, I registered as a Republican. I was a fan of people like Mark O. Hatfield and Paul Laxalt.

Part of me still values the conservative principles I saw in those men. That part of me is very sad to see the ruin of the Republican Party now, and how its leaders have so vilely and thoroughly corrupted the Party’s core values.

Now I am a Democrat, mainly because of the following three things: 1) Women’s right to choose, 2) Environmental concerns, and 3) Republicans climbing into bed with radical Christian evangelicals. The ludicrous Iraq war mongering was the latest nail in the coffin.

But I believe in the Republic. The Democratic Party is strongest and able to best help the country when it faces a principled, sound Republican Party (and vice versa.)

Republican hegemony and incompetent/corrupt leadership have caused a lot of harm.

But, thankfully, not irreparable harm.

29

I was raised a Christian evangelical, & I grew to hate the GOP for co-opting people who seemed to want an upright & godly government into a coalition with antinomian libertarians & godless warmongers.

But I’ll grant that there are a lot of “evangelicals” who aren’t really that moral, & actively want an immoral & corrupt government for some neurotic reason.

30

No, I can understand any problems he has with Democrats in general (although I think it’s mostly based on stereotyping; the Republicans have been outspending the Democrats for the last twenty years). The question I have was about his timing. It’s like somebody voting for Nixon in 1968 and 1972 and then deciding not to vote for Ford in 1976 - if you stuck with the GOP through the bad times, why quit when things are finally looking up? Or am I misunderstanding your father’s position? Does he feel that Bush has done a good job and McCain won’t be able to hold things up as well?

31

[QUOTE=ElvisL1ves]
Weren’t you as positive about Kerry four years ago? I was too, I admit it.

[/QUOTE]

Not at all. Trying to defeat a sitting president is never easy. And John Kerry was about 1/100th as impressive as Barack Obama.

32

McCain/Lieberman 08!

33

[QUOTE=MacTech]
Simply put, to Dad, a Democratic President (and Congress and Representatives) means that we’ll be taxed to death, to the point of screaming, Dad’s view is Democrats=Tax-And-Spend policies and “nannystating” us to oblivion
[/QUOTE]
Ok, but your Dad doesn’t seem to have a solid grasp of the facts.

Let’s take a look at Federal Government outlays as a share of GDP.



Date	outlays
1992	22.1______
1993	21.4
1994	21.0
1995	20.7
1996	20.3
1997	19.6
1998	19.2
1999	18.7
2000	18.4__________
2001	18.5
2002	19.4
2003	20.0
2004	19.9
2005	20.2
2006	20.3

As a share of national output, Federal Outlays declined under Clinton and rose under Bush.

Now frankly, I expect outlays to rise under the next Democratic administration. The US spends a higher share of GDP on health care than any other developed country – and has medical outcomes that are only average. Universal health care has some efficiency advantages, but it will involve higher government spending.

Still, the “Tax and spend” mantra borders on delusion, given the observable performance of the Republican Party over the last 28 years.

Above data: Table 455, 1st Excel link: http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/cats/federal_govt_finances_employment/federal_budgetreceipts_outlays_and_debt.html

34

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]

Now frankly, I expect outlays to rise under the next Democratic administration. The US spends a higher share of GDP on health care than any other developed country – and has medical outcomes that are only average. Universal health care has some efficiency advantages, but it will involve higher government spending.

[/QUOTE]

Not if the war gets ended fairly quickly they won’t. We can cover health care for a lot of people, and do some infrastructure improvement, for just a few months of what Bush is pissing away in Iraq. So I suspect the trend you display will continue.

35

[QUOTE=Measure for Measure]
Ok, but your Dad doesn’t seem to have a solid grasp of the facts. […]

Still, the “Tax and spend” mantra borders on delusion, given the observable performance of the Republican Party over the last 28 years.
[/QUOTE]
Economic performance is better under Democratic presidents going back much further than the last 28 years. The entire idea that Republicans are good for the economy is complete fiction.

Here’s a summary chart of a variety of indicators and the outcomes under Democrats and Republicans. It was last updated in 2004.

http://www.eriposte.com/economy/other/demovsrep.htm

36

[QUOTE=MacTech]
Thanks a lot, Dubya and Cheney, for thoroughly dragging the Republican paty through the mud and crap, demeaning and maligning the party to the point that I’m ashamed to admit that I’m a Republican (old-school Pubbie, not a “Bush-Pubbie”), thanks for destroying the U.S.'s standing in the world, and thanks for increasing corruption and government spending to stratospheric heights, and getting us into that quagmire currently masquerading as the “Iraq War”

Yes, there’s a reason for this thread…

My family has been staunchly Republican for all 36 years of my life, in all that time, Bush and Cronies have managed to do the unthinkable to this family…

Make me consider voting for Obama, if Ron Paul continues fading further into obscurity, that is
Make my 60+ year old Mother consider voting for Obama, as she doesn’t feel that she can trust anyone else in the race

and most stunningly, make my 75 year old Father, a man who has voted Republican in EVERY election since I was born, consider NOT EVEN VOTING this year, Dad has never not voted, but he’s a hardcore Republican, the chances of him voting for a Democrat or Independent are roughly equivalent to Hell freezing over, yet he feels that he may sit this election out, nobody appeals to him, he doesn’t trust the republican candidates, and he feels that the Dems will tax us into oblivion (what, you mean like Dubya’s done for the last eight years?)

Dad’s a smart guy, he was VP, and then President of Clarostat manufacturing, a company that made analog switches, potentiometers and other components in the old Mill Building in Dover, NH (now known as One Washington Center), their products were used in everything from home electrical appliances and electronics, all the way up to the F-16 and AV-8 Harrier fighters, He’s a shrewd businessman (now long retired), and if HE doesn’t find anyone worth voting for, that’s just unnerving to me…

don’t get me wrong, he’s no mindless Pubbie-Drone, he HATES Bush and Cronies as much as I do, and as much as my fellow Dopers, to hear him say that “I might as well sit this one out” to me is, quite frankly, jaw-dropping

Bravo, Dubya, you’re doing a hell of a job!
[/QUOTE]

that’s quite dramatic, but nothing compares to the complete clusterf*** the democratic party is right now. between the florida/michigan disenfranchized voters thanks to the democratic party and the major war between the obama and hillary camp. This thing is in complete confusion.

Now you have Hillary claiming that whomever is the democratic nomination, they will not be legitimate because florida and michigan delegates are not included…

Not to mention her fabricated “war stories” and the recent trouble Obama had to endure because of Minister Wright.

It’s like one thing after an other for this party.

And this is the one time I thought the Democrats would be a shoe-in for the presidency because of the iraqi war. Now I’m not so sure.

You have the hardcore clinton supporters threatening to defect if Obama is the nomination and Obama hardcore supporters threating the same…

What a nightmare.

37

[QUOTE=JohnnieEnigma]
that’s quite dramatic, but nothing compares to the complete clusterf*** the democratic party is right now. between the florida/michigan disenfranchized voters thanks to the democratic party and the major war between the obama and hillary camp. This thing is in complete confusion.

Now you have Hillary claiming that whomever is the democratic nomination, they will not be legitimate because florida and michigan delegates are not included…

Not to mention her fabricated “war stories” and the recent trouble Obama had to endure because of Minister Wright.

It’s like one thing after an other for this party.

And this is the one time I thought the Democrats would be a shoe-in for the presidency because of the iraqi war. Now I’m not so sure.

You have the hardcore clinton supporters threatening to defect if Obama is the nomination and Obama hardcore supporters threating the same…

What a nightmare.
[/QUOTE]

You need to take a break from the blogs and talk radio for a week. Almost everything you are worried about is either irrelevant or water under the bridge. It doesn’t matter how riled up the Limbaugh listeners are, it’s what the Democrats think that counts. Obama took a temporary hit with the Wright stuff (heh) but a week later things are right back to where they were before this stuff hit. Obama leads in every metric - there is virtually no way for Clinton to pull ahead now. All this Michigan/Florida, Rev. Wright, Clinton in Bosnia stuff is just talk show fodder. All that counts is that Dems are turning out in record numbers and Repub’s are staying home. The Dems haven’t even begun to run against McCain yet. Believe me, they have plenty of ammo stocked away ready to fire at McCain.

Get ready for President Obama. It’s inevitable.

38

I would like to point out that the sheer insulting tone of the some Democrats in this thread is exactly what has kept more Republicans from switching parties.

39

[QUOTE=Algher]
I would like to point out that the sheer insulting tone of the some Democrats in this thread is exactly what has kept more Republicans from switching parties.
[/QUOTE]
Do those people not have the capacity for rational thought? Do they not have a conscience or beliefs about what is right and wrong? These are the types of things that should drive people’s choices for our country’s leaders.

Anyone whose political decision making process is stymied because they felt insulted by some poster on a message board: 1) probably wouldn’t have changed their vote anyway, and is just saying they would have “if only…” because they are like a petulant, manipulative child and 2) is of such suspect personal integrity and dubious competency that they shouldn’t be voting in the first place.

40

[QUOTE=Algher]
I would like to point out that the sheer insulting tone of the some Democrats in this thread is exactly what has kept more Republicans from switching parties.
[/QUOTE]

Ooh! Poor Republicans, so easily hurt that they’d vote for Dunderhead Bush. Twice.

The late Molly Ivins once lamented that Extinct Creature–the Liberal Republican.