And I would like to point out that it is hard to discuss the modern Republican Party without sounding insulting. It is not the fault of those who are disgusted with the current administration that this administration is. . . disgusting. It is not the fault of Democrats that the Republicans have outspent them for the last 28 years. It is not the fault of Democrats that Bush and Co are spending trillions of dollars in a trumped up clusterfuck.
It is not possible to spare your feelings and speak the truth about the current White House. Perhaps you should place the blame where it belongs-- not on the Democrats in this thread but the politicians leading your party.
I can understand the OP’s pain. My Dad is a retired Army general, a USMA grad, did 36 years from 1963-1999 in military service, and he’s a pretty hardcore Republican. My Mom has kind of “gone along” with my Dad’s voting tendencies, even though my Dad will not disclose whom he votes for, ever.
I have had recent discussions with my mother and when even her normally sunny, even-keeled disposition is marred by considering “voting the other way”, you know the winds of change are a-blowing…
Probably, but they also have a sort of tribal identification with the Republican Party, and are bound to take any argument that comes down to “The Republican Party is teh suxxor!!!” as a personal insult to them no matter how they feel about the party’s current direction.
And kind of funny, actually, when you consider that if you’re in a room full of Democrats and you say “God, the Democratic party SUCKS!”, pretty close to half the room, at least, (and depending on what some fool of a Congressional or gubernatorial Democrat said on TV that day, possibly the whole room) will nod and mutter “yeah, doesn’t it?..sigh”…
I think that until the Republican party rejects and vanquishes Neoconservatism it will fail. I was once a Reagan Republican who quit the party in disgust after Iranscam. It all started there, with an attemps of ignoring the law as set down by Congress and trying to police the world according to their own doctrine. I think that PNAC should have been a warning sign when a party which long endorsed keeping out of other countries businesses began proposing an enforced empire of American interests.
This has been borne out in other ways such as their charge and spend plan, acceptance of torture, violation of privacy rights and other things which would have been abominations to most conservatives about a generation ago. I think this is why the kool-aid meme has stuck so well, as to say ‘What were they thinking??!’ Ultimately it has turned into pure ideology over governance. This is always prelude to failure for any political party.
But I think many Republicans are starting to see the hypocrisy though too late at this time. If the Democrats take the White House and control of the Senate, so long as they make things even moderately better for the average American, it will be at least 8 years until the Republicans can put itself back together.
Unless they refuse to abandon Neoconservatism. That would be a handy punching bag for Democrats to take shots at for years to come and will make it impossible for the GOP to resolve the course corrections needed.
I’m sorry - who controlled the House, The Senate, and the Presidency over the past 28 years? It was not just the Republicans.
Speaking truth about the current white house is great. I will join in happily. You can log onto places like American Conservative and National Review and find plenty of attacks on Bush, Cheney, and the uncontrolled spending by the Republican House and Senate.
Now - do you want to grab the disenchanted (and disenfranchised) Republicans? Quick the personal attacks, and show us how the Democrats are a better fit for us. You could swipe up a good 5-10% and ensure that your margin of victory is high.
Insult us, and we will probably stay home on election day.
The percentage growth in total federal spending: Dem: 6.96% Repub: 7.57%
The percentage growth in non-defense federal spending: Dem: 8.34% Repub: 10.08%
Yearly budget deficit: Dem: $36 billion Repub: $190 billion
So it’s been at least the past 46 years for these data. The link I provided earlier has other indicators that go back further than that.
And we’ve discussed at the SDMB the data on economic indicators by party control of congress, and by whether the presidency and the congress were under control of one party or split, and by congressional spending by district, and the same holds true: Democrats are better for the economy by any measure you want to choose. This has been true for most all of our lifetimes or longer (making some presumtions that we are not skewed towards septagenarians here).
I wish this message would be heard, but frustratingly people all along the political spectrum still want to believe that Republicans are somehow better for the economy. They are not!
Right. Because you have never been exposed before to the facts, information, data, and reasoned arguments that show how the Democrats are a better fit. Did you check out the link I provided earlier? I presume not.
If you (not you personally, you in the general sense) are a Republican who believes in small government, less taxes and non-interference in the private lives of it’s citizens but continue to vote for the current Republican party because the Democrats point out how dumb it is to vote for a party who has been doing the exact opposite of what you profess you want your party to do, then you deserve the party you have.
I want to grab no one, I am not a politician. If you want to continue to support a party that does not reflect your ideology then you can be my guest. Don’t act surprised or hurt when it is pointed out that doing so is stupid.
The one that only shows who the President is? I have seen it before. It does not capture the issues regarding Presidency, House, Senate and the lag in effect from various measures.
Small Government - check. Tell me how the Democrats want to reduce the size of the government, please.
Lower taxes - check. Tell me how the Democrats want to keep tax burdens low.
Private lives - check. I consider the war on drugs and the anti gay policies of the Republicans to be horrible. I understand that the Democrats are more pro gay, but I must have missed the Democrats serious movements to end the war on drugs. I am also interested in when will the Democrats stop telling me that they can not trust me with a firearm.
I do not support the Republicans any more, and have not for a few years. Now - do the Democrats have something that could interest me and get my support?
Wow - I am trying to explain how the Democrats could do a little better by dropping the insulting tone, and I get even more insults.
See, we judge the groups by the actions of its members. If the Democratic Party is truly a gathering of juvenile insult artists, I see no reason to join. I will continue to be an independent, rather than possibly strengthening your party.
Now, this is a message board - so the juvenile actions of some posters does not necessarily represent anyone of course. I simply expected a little better in a debate thread about someone’s family switching parties.
I insulted you? You are the one insisting that it’s hurt feelings that are keeping Republicans away from the Democratic party. I’m only reflecting this sentiment back at you.
It is entirely up to the individual to decide which party they choose to be in. Everyone can look at the facts and information available to them. If they choose to support a party that does not represent them, that is not my fault. If they choose to be insulted by the truth, that isn’t my fault either.
I suppose you think I should say nice things about Republicans who cling to their party because the nasty Democrats are so mean. O.K., I’ll give it a try:
There, there Republicans. It’s O.K. that your party likes to torture and spend trillions killing people based on lies and half-truths. It’s perfectly fine that they advocate teaching myths in science class. The Constitution? Just suggestions! Come on over to the Democratic Party where we’ll massage your shoulders and only use pretty, pretty words to describe the utter disaster that your former party has engineered.
No hurt feelings - show where I ever claimed my feelings were hurt. I said end the insulting tone if you expect anyone to listen to your message. I understand, you don’t want to pick up any votes at the margin.
We don’t want to reduce the size of government. We think an active and involved government is an essential element of peace and prosperity. That means a government big enough to get the job done.
What we keep pointing out is that despite all the rhetoric the Republican Party hasn’t been the party of small government for at least a generation, maybe two. All that “make the government smaller stuff”? They were just lying about that. Because when they’ve actually had the power to make the government smaller they’ve done exactly the opposite.
You want a party that’s interested in making government smaller? Toss out the current leadership of the Republicans and rebuild the party from the ground up. Or vote libertarian. But don’t expect the Democrats to pander to you.
We want tax revenues to match government expeditures. Lower taxes while raising spending is foolish and irresponsible.
On the other hand the Democrats have been fighting the Bush administration on domestic spying. And the Democrats have been steadfastly opposed to torture while many Republicans have embraced it.
Probably not. You’re a conservative and we’re liberals. We want to take the country in a different direction than where you want to go. The Democratic party isn’t merely “Republican Lite”. It’s a different vision for what we should be doing as a nation. It’s not going to appeal to everyone.
Seriously, I’ve spent almost my entire adult life putting up with Republicans in power who did NOTHING to reach out to get my vote. It seems sort of odd that you would expect the Democrats to behave differently now that the pendulum is swinging the other way.
I have no message. None. I am not a politician. I am not trying to pick up votes. What I am is totally disgusted with the Republican Party. If my disgust with them is insulting to you, then your problem shouldn’t be with my tone, it should be with your party.
The problem, I think, is that many Republicans think that if you insult the party or one of it’s members, then you’re insulting them. It’s true for some Democrats too but, for the most part, Democrats don’t play that “my team” game. This is why the Democratic Party often look disorganized and ready to fall apart at the seams.
Like with Hilary. I voted for her for senator. I believed her to be sincere. I defended her against charges of carpetbagging. I was wrong and I realized this just before she decided to run for President. She’s a power-hungry liar and if a Republican were to call her a power-hungry liar, I’d not find it insulting at all. It’s only the truth.
Now, if after I realized she was a power-hungry liar, I continued to support her and vote for her-- then I’d be dumb, wouldn’t I? How could I complain about the insulting tone of anyone calling me a fool for voting for her when I know she is what she is?
Small govt.: Pay Go is one way that worked for us - not spending beyond our means will help reduce the size of govt. debt. BTW - I don’t want bigger gov’t or smaller gov’t. I want properly scaled gov’t, and if you have a growing economy (or a shrinking one) and either a growing or shrinking population, I want gov’t that accommodates it.
Another point is sometimes the gov’t can be used as a temporary economic engine to spur growth and increase tax revenue without raising taxes. There is some talk about Dems investing in rebuilding our infrastructure such as roads and bridges etc. This would create new jobs, create tax revenue from new or higher wage earners as well as the companies who will pay taxes out of their higher profits. But yes it’s going to cost some money. However simply rolling back taxes to Clinton era levels on the highest earning 2% of taxpayers can get that ball rolling.
While no one likes paying taxes you can’t run a country without them. I think Republicans miss the point in that taxes are an investment in the country and that what really counts. Whatever the tax rate, is how EFFICIENT gov’t spending is what we mostly need to be attuned to. When investments are paying off, (which is less likely when one is trying to cut spending wholesale despite any financial successes) isn’t it reasonable to invest a bit more?
Sometimes it make us buckets of money. There are figures showing that for every dollar spent on the GI Bill after WWII, at its peak that dollar came back into the public sector as a $6 to $8 dollar return due to higher wages by vets getting college degrees or buying homes and starting businesses from gov’t loans. The Apollo program at its peak brought similar returns from spin-off technologies such as what became MRI and CAT SCAN machines, computer hardware miniaturization and improved software development, the all-weather tire, the athletic shoe capitalized on by Nike and Addidas (modeled by research after the moon boots the astronauts wore) and on and on. We’re likely still making money off of that program, aren’t we? What about investments in education, the interstate highway system, rural electrification, the Internet, all brought to you by your tax dollar?
Unless you are in that highest tax bracket there is a lot of GOP hand wringing about everyone paying higher taxes. This is disingenuous as liberals in general understand that our economy runs on demand, not the smoke and mirrors of surplus side economics which has once again in the last few years shown to have only a short term impact. Otherwise we wouldn’t be in recession, or damn near it again after 5 years time. Demand means giving the middle class the greatest spending power, not the capitalists. Capitalism does just fine, thank you very much, when wages are good and people can save and spend on big ticket items, afford a better standard of living including luxuries and money spent on charities, hobbies, and investments.
In fact, to Dems it is making a lot sense to lower taxes on most of the middle class because if you give 98% of the people more money to spend it will be a lot more direct investment into our economy than what will be spent by fat cats who already have everything they need and will likely be investing in euros or gold or likewise over the next couple of years. Much more importantly is that it also makes sense to help boost wages, such as by raising the minimum wage which will be enough to affect at least a couple wage tiers above the low end. Or raising wages by creating new jobs for a while (and I believe in sunsets to keep it from getting out of hand) that create more competition. Or sometimes business regulation can also create more competition if the regulations are those that level the overall playing field so that small businesses compete more effectively against megacorps.
Short term losses of profits from higher wages are counteracted from that very first friday that higher wages go into effect to negate the higher expenses. Businesses will try in the short run to keep from passing excessive price hikes along to consumers for the sake of competition and good business sense (not scaring customers away). While consumers on the other hand are likely to spend immediately and/or start tackling their debts for greater spending power in the long run. The same tax rate with higher wages is a win-win for me and the gov’t. We pay out more but still take more home. And higher wages with steady tax rates can even make lowering tax rates very attractive to all if gov’t spending is reduced significantly over time.
The average folk will put their money back into economy. Approximately 300,000 taxpayers own about half the wealth in this country. Why not simply make them responsible for half the taxes? When someone like Warren Buffet say he’s been averaging about 17% paid out to the gov’t, less than his secretary pays, that clearly isn’t happening. Let the other 100 million or so pay at a lower or steady rate and they’ll invest en masse, through sales and stocks, into the businesses that 300,000 own. Those on top will do just fine. In fact, they’ll still be worth way more than the rest of us.