Thanos and a few othe comic questions...

Cafe Society
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I had the urge to read some old comics and it made me wonder a few things. Specifically I read the ***Infinity Gauntlet ***and ***The Infinity War ***again.

Thanos, being the main villain in the *Infinity Gauntlet *starts off by trying to stop the **Silver Surfer **from interfering with his plans. But it made me wonder…how powerful is Thanos?

Way back in the day before I lost my once awesome comic book collection to a flood, I had an issue of Marvel 2-in-1 where **Spider-Man **and the **Thing **took on Thanos. Thanos had already defeated the Avengers, including Thor. So we know that he’s powerful. But in the Infinity Gauntlet stories he frequently tells the Surfer that he can defeat him easily…and indeed, the Surfer’s powers seem ineffectual to Thanos.

Huh? The Surfer has the Power Cosmic! He’s supposed to be ridiculously powerful, or at least he was originally potrayed as such. In my memory of comics past, he’s transformed matter, shrugged off blows from the Thing, defeated the Hulk (or at least sucked all of the gamma energy out of Banner, making him a normal person) and flown through stars. (which made me wonder HOW** Doctor Doom **was able to knock the Surfer out in the Infinity Gauntlet story. I mean, the guy can fly through a star…Doom can knock him down eith a blast from his armored gauntlet?)

Thanos also took on Odin, king of the Norse Gods, in a story where **Thor **went mad. Now I always thought that Odin was maybe on an an equal level with Galactus in power, but maybe I’m wrong. Because even though the battle ended with no clear winner, Thanos held his own. (Though admittedly IIRC, it appeared that Odin had the upper hand).

So how powerful is Thanos? Is he Galactus level powerful? He’s beaten the Surfer who is supposed to be Galactus’ most powerful herald. He’s defeated Earth’s mightiest heroes solo…He’s taken on Odin and walked away.

ADAM WARLOCK

Warlock is supposed to be a major player, I assume, in Marvel’s universe. But he’s never seemed particularly powerful to me. Granted I haven’t read anything recent in comics concerning him, but the heroes either like or fear him. I’ve never seen why. He just seems like a spooky guy with moderate super powers.

HULK? THE STRONGEST ONE THERE IS?

The Hulk is supposed to be the most physically powerful being ever. Its been established a long time ago that he is stronger than the Thing, and the history of those two involves several battles. (Though from what I understand, The Thing is a better fighter, he just can’t keep up with Hulk’s overwhelming might).

But what about Thor, Hercules and various other Marvel Strong guy characters? Sure, Thor has other ?. The same question can go for Hercules or even Namor, the Sub-Mariner. Herc is the god (demi-god?) of strength. Is the Hulk stronger than HE is? Namor has fought the Hulk also, and is supposed to be in the fantastically strong cateragory. I suppose he is weaker than Hulk, but Namor has gone fist to fist with him and walked away.

I know that the answers are dependent on who is writing them at the time, and most of my comics knowledge is from years ao, but I just wondered about the relative strength of some of these characters.

I don’t include DC characters in it, since its a different comapny and continuity…even though in the days of old there were a few cross company books where Spider-Man and Superman teamed up. (geez I’m old)

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My understanding is that **Hulk **is the strongest terrestrial character in the MU, and that includes characters like **Thor **and Hercules, who aren’t really Earth based, but might as well be. Thing, though powerful, was only around Class 70 (able to lift or press 70 tons) according to my Marvel Handbook from ages ago, which would put him at the level of Colossus, but the others mentioned are all 100+, which is where I think **Juggernaut **is as well.

**Thanos **and Warlock, both being Cosmic heavy-hitters, should be somewhere pn the scale between **Thor **and Silver Surfer.

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Thanos pretty much laughed at the Surfer’s attack BEFORE he even had the infinity gauntlet, but, as you say, he is a heavy hitter. Still, without the IG he took on Odin, which realistically ( a strange word to use, discussing superheroes), Thor shouldn’t be able to do.

He also spoke to Galactus as pretty much an equal in the infinity War. At the very least he did not give much respect to Galactus. Thats a samll wonder though. Many characters speak to him as if he were just a really tall guy while at the same time talking about how immensely powerful and diety like Galactus is. With a personality like Thanos thats not a surprise, I guess. Written well, he is both a villain and anti-hero, and a complex person.

Warlock? Other than reputation, he doesn’t seem that powerful to me. Yet he gets reactions from pother characters as if he’s the super-badass of the unverse.

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Marvel once grouped its characters together by levels of strength. As I recall, the top tiered group consisted of Hercules, the Hulk, Thor, and Wonderman. Colossus, Iron Man, and the Thing were in lower groups.

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I’ve always been more of a DC fan than a Marvel, (though I’ve read more than my fair share of Marvel comics in my time) so take this with a grain of salt…

My understanding of the Hulk’s strength is that there is no theoretical upper limit. As he gets angrier he gets stronger indefinitely. He’s potentially stronger than the Thing and Hercules without question though as he gives in to his anger he loses touch with Banner’s intellect. Is this not the case?

I’ve always viewed the Hulk as a force of nature, (or more specifically man’s scientific potential ran amok), and thus theoretically unstoppable short of cosmic interference.

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Thanos has vast physical and cosmic strength. There was an unfortunate Ka-Zar storyline where Kevin Plunder was able to best Thanos on the big T’s worst day, but that was retconned as being a defective clone of the Death-obsessed Titan.

Thanos’s flaw isn’t that he can be overpowered–for all practical purposes, no one but Galactus, a Celestial or the Living Tribunal can do that–but that on some primal level, he doesn’t really want what he thinks he wants. This can be exploited, but usually this is accidental. Think of him as Marvel’s Darkseid.

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I was under the impression that there’s more going on than just strength. Hulk’s strength is unending, but it’s just strength – he has no power. Thor, Odin, Galactus, Adam Warlock, Thanos: they are all strong, but their power is more important. It doesn’t matter how hard Hulk hits you if you can tell the universe that nothing happened.

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[quote=“Jihi, post:5, topic:502723”]

I’ve always been more of a DC fan than a Marvel, (though I’ve read more than my fair share of Marvel comics in my time) so take this with a grain of salt…

[quote]

Grain of salt taken. anything said here sholdn’t be taken as more than that, anyway.

.

Yeah, I know. The problem is that if he has limitless strength, he is then stronger than…well, EVERYONE. Including, Thor, Hercules and other characters who have divine origins. It just takes a bit away from them. I don’t want to cross universes, but that makes him stronger than Superman, who would also need litmitless strength to compete. (Superman is aready way too powerful, IMO)

Its hard to say for me. Its been a long time since I kept track of comics, except the occassional “get-some-comics-read-'em-while-BBQing” thing. Is the Hulk currently a simpleton with a lot of power as he was in the 70s or early 80s or does he now have a mind? The Hulk’s mental state is dependent on who is writing him and how well the books will sell.

That takes a lot away from characters who ARE a force of nature, IMO. (Thor, Herc, various others) But being a comic book character, I can understand that.

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I found that to be the most interesting part of IG/IW. Warlock even commented on it. He pretty much told all of the other heroes that he alone could defeat Thanos because he knows Thanos too well.

Thanos himself agreed, in the end that he has achieved his goals and been beaten because he just didn’t have the true to desire to win. (paraphrasing).

He’s like a cosmic version of Doctor Doom I guess. Not that Doom has ever said he didn’t win because he didn’t want it enough, but because Doom is so much like an anti-hero in his villainy.

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Actually, so does Thanos.

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Well, its been awhile since I’ve read comics seriously. How did Thanos get this power, since I thought it was given by Galactus or another cosmic entity. (npt doubting you, but the retconning that goes on makes things a bit confusing at times)

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Galactus is just one of the more prominant sources of it; some of the more powerful races can also tap into “cosmic energy”, to varying degrees. Silver Surfer once fought a Skrull Surfer-impostor who used a network of power stations to give himself cosmic powers nearly as powerful, for example. And the Eternals of Earth all got cosmic power due to an accident, although not as powerful as the Surfer. Eternals are apparently highly compatibility with this s force; Thanos is a mutant who generates his own.

Galactus can generally hand out more of it, and do so more safely; Doctor Doom built his own Power Cosmic empowerment device, but it has the little side effect of killing the empowered person sooner or later. The “Power Cosmic” isn’t so much specific to Galactus, as it is a top tier form of power that few can handle.

All of the above subject to retcons since I read about it, of course.

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The last Hulk story I read was “Planet Hulk” which is several years out date already, but at the time he was written as a few levels above simpleton. Capable of complex speech and reasoning but well below a high level intelligence.

I agree with your general point though, the Hulk’s level of general intelligence fluctuates greatly depending on the writer.

You know, I want to respond this specifically, and it’s strange, but here’s the thing… I understand completely where you’re coming from in the “undercutting other characters” idea, particularly god inspired characters such as Thor and Herc, but I don’t have a problem with it on an instinctual level and I’m trying to figure out why that is…

I know you don’t want to go cross universe here, but I’m going to for a second and I hope you’ll forgive for doing so on a metaphorical level… :stuck_out_tongue:

As a DC fan, (because DC is far more apt to do this as compared to Marvel), I’m used to the idea of mythologizing characters to an absurd degree, completely divorcing them from the literal conception. Superman isn’t just an alien raised by human parents, he’s a paragon of nobility and good will. An icon of what we want to be in our best fleeting moments. (When I think of the Big Blue Boyscout this is what I think of, not his powers). His physical strength is completely immaterial to that and frankly, (but not inconsequentially), I have no problem with positing that the Hulk, or anyone else really, is physically stronger than Kal-El. It doesn’t remove what essentially defines his character.

In the same vein the Hulk is a representation of total, uncontrollable rage. What we are, potentially, when we abandon reason and self-restraint. His origins, and the technical details thereof, are unimportant. When writers slot his character into a story, I have no problem accepting him in that role as defined.

I know this is a tangent, I hope everyone will forgive me for indulging but I find this particular subject fascinating.

Yes, I am a total geek. :smiley:

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Jihi, go for it man. The reason I said the cross universe thing was to keep the thread from devolving into a “Superman vs Hulk in arm wrestling” thing.

AFAIK every battle between the Hulk and guys like Herc and Thor usually end up as a draw. I think its because You can’t have Hulk trouncing Thor, Herc or any other “god”, yet you have to maintain Hulk’s rep as the Strongest One There Is.

I used to have the Marvel Universe books back in the 80’s detailing the powers of the characters. While it was fun to read, I always knew they’d have a hard time keeping the power scale consistent. For instance, Luke Cage…in his own run in the 70’s 80’s in his own magazine has at times been strong enough to knock down the Thing, but at others had to strain to destroy a handgun. He’s been shown to have steel hard skin and bullets bounce of him. Sometimes he says they still sting, sometimes they don’t. It depends on the writer of course, but (man, I wish I still had these comics) before he teamed up with Iron Fist the two had a fight where Iron Fist commented that Cage’s skin was actually harder than steel.

Iron Man once knocked the Hulk out with one punch also. It took all of his power, but at the time that book was printed I didn’t think Iron Man could generate that kind of power.

As I prepared to go to bed last night I thought about what was said about Thanos having the Power Cosmic by Der Trihs. How many Heralds has Galactus had so far? The Surfer, Nova, Gabriel the Air-Walker, Firelord, Terrax, Morg…did I miss any? Each one of them quit or rebelled in some fashion IIRC. For someone who is nearly omnipotent, the Almighty Galactus hands out the Power Cosmic to pretty bad candidates. I mean, he wants a Herald but his super-duper-godlike mind can’t find a candidate that won’t leave or betray him? Kinda makes me chuckle.

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Well there was that Hulk VS Thor animated movie they made a little while ago, where Loki wanted to take control of the Hulk and use him to lay down a beating on Thor. He them ‘killed’ Banner and lost control of the Hulk; turning the Hulk into a force of pure rage. Unstopping, uncontrolable; laying waste to all of Asgard.

This Hulk did defeat Thor, nearly killing him and was a considered real threat to the sleeping Odin.

He was stopped by bringing Banner back to life and rebonding him to the Hulk.

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In the first issue of Silver Surfer our silvery friend pretty much man handles an angered hulk without breaking a sweat. Metaphorically speaking…I mean, does SS even sweat?

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Short of Wolverine the Silver Sufer has perhaps the most sloppily defined power levels in the Marvel universe. There are stories (Captain Reptyl series) where non-powered characters are beating up the SS with ray gun hand weapons and others where he is pretty much a God virtually immune to planet shattering levels of force.

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IIRC, your hands can’t hit what your eyes can’t see. How can the Hulk compete with a guy who launches telescopic-range attacks while flying around at invisible super-speed?

Like the man said, even Ben Grimm can reliably get in the first shot when the Hulk goes looking for a fight; with nothing to push against, what’s the Hulk’s next move if he’s just been shoved off the planet? (After all, it’s not like his strength changes the fact that he weighs less than a ton and can’t fly…)

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You know, it’s occurred to me that with all the talk about the Hulk, Thor, Silver Surfer, Thanos, Galactus, Warlock and all the rest we’ve completely forgotten the true biggest badass in the Marvel Universe.

Oh, and make sure to check out her official power grid.

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Good god!

She’s THAT powerful??

HOW?