Apparantly they’re going to identify Hindus using yellow strips of cloth.
Irony has reached critical mass, folks.
And a goodly number of normal Afghanis who would consider it offensive. Most of these folks are illiterate country folk, they react poorly to too much strangeness. One thing that provoked the uprising against the Soviet backed regime.
No, you don’t. Everyone knows that the Taleban are ruthless motherfuckers and one reason they won is much of the country is just sick of war. The heart is not in it. You’re not gonna get un uprising over something that would come off as crass attempts to shove haram stuff into the culture.
Shrug, come on down to a country where folks are used to living in total deprivation.
(and yes I know this is all tongue in cheek, however it also strikes me that the joke rests on an important misunderstanding of other cultures.)
This is one thing I don’t understand.
There are, obviously, some educated people there. There have been articles I’ve read (no cite, Newsweek, Time, WWN or something) that have interviewed female physicians that are treating people on the sly. Teachers that are instructing little girls in different homes (roving schools) daily.
Why are these people putting up with this? I understand part may be some form of selflessness, but don’t they have ONE FUCKING IOTA of self-preservation?
Love of country? Patriotism? Okay, sure…I’m sure the exiled crown princes of Greece and Italy are patriotic too, but it doens’t mean they’re fucking IDIOTS!
Doing it for the kids? Any rational person would take the kids and get the fuck out!
Staying for the family? If their family was that hardcore, would they have let their daughters go to school, be taught on the sly or work outside the home in the first place?
The whole thing is preposturous (sp? I’ve been drinking, can you tell?) and it makes me MAD! Who the fuck CARES if they’re poor, destitute and hungry!
I would CRAWL through the mountains of Afghanistan NAKED, in the fucking WINTER, subsisting on SWEATY SHOE LEATHER, all the while taking it up the ass HOURLY with NO FUCKING LUBRICATION to ensure that my daughter wouldn’t have to live like that.
Really.
I’m not kidding.
How can parents raise their children like that? I thought it was one of those universal laws…that parents want BETTER for their children.
It sickens me that people can be SO fucking DELUSIONAL about religion that they would feed their child cyanide-laced kool-aid (Jones Town), kidnap and starve your child nearly to DEATH because you think he’s a prophet ( http://www.children-missing.org/updates/found/1013.html ) or try to resume breastfeeding MONTHS after you quit becasue your SIL had a fucking vision ( http://www.cbsnews.com/now/story/0,1597,243637-412,00.shtml ) that indicated you should because you were too vain!
SCHITZOPHRENICS HAVE VISIONS TOO!!! Fine, they call them paranoid delusions…but WTF is the difference? Huh?
And Bush, that little fucking weasel. I voted for his dad, TWICE!! I am ashamed that such a GAZOO made it to the presidency. How did such a weenie, nay, pussy do it?
Oh yes, I see. He went to Andover Acaaaaaaademy. Yeah, I lived 2 miles from there when I was in MA. It’s a boarding school, nice and exclusive.
You can be boarded there in elementary school…it also means that YOUR PARENTS FARMED YOU OFF FOR SOMEONE ELSE TO RAISE FROM AGE SIX TO AGE 17!!!
It’s downright shameful.
GAHHHH!
I need a smoke.
Fucking Republicans.
Most have fled. There were very few to begin with pre 1979. War and Civil war has raged from 1979 to 2000 unabated.
A tiny minority.
Perhaps they love their country?
Perhaps they can’t get loved ones out?
Perhaps the unrewarding trek through landmine and bandit infested highlands to find squalid refugee camps and long, long waiting lines to get visas to other countries strikes them as unrewarding?
You may wish to visit a third world nation, especially one without regular and easy transit before making silly statements like this.
Or learn something about how hard it is to get a visas to come to the west, even on good refugee grounds if one is not a celebrity.
Sure, easy for you to say. It ain’t like jumping in the Ford Explorer and going down to Walmart.
Ah easy rage against the victims. How very charming.
Tell me, what have you done to help them?
Have you agitated for more refugee visas for afghanis? Sent money to help the poor bastards in the camps? Or is it enough to demonize the poor bastards with nowhere to go?
Okay, why don’t you take a flight to Pakistan and put your money where your mouth is. Help out in a refugee camp. I’m sure you could hack it for all of four hours.
Of course crawling through the mountains or even sauntering is a trifle hazardous, the mines and all. Take a look at the maime rates in refugee camps in Pakistan. Oh yeah, I forgot to mention, the Paki authorities also are doing their best to kick you out and back into Afghanistan.
Really fucking rewarding that.
Aside from the fact some folks may have different ideas about what is better, a realistic idea of the challenges people face in changing the situation is in order.
I’m all for outrage, but some of the comments in this thread are just fucking stupid. Get a fucking clue people. Get a fucking clue.
Sue Duhnym: There really isn’t much intelligentsia left in Afghanistan. Some fled the Soviets. Some ( quite a few of the educated were pro-Soviet ) fled the Mujahadeen after they took power. More have fled the Taliban ( though there were damn few left by then ). And a lot have been killed over the course of the war ( which remember stretches back decades now ).
Now a few have returned. I knew one young woman a few years ago who was planning too ( she was very hopeful about The Taliban eventually easing up at that point ), but I don’t know what ever became of that. But I would say that for every one who has gone back and stayed to help rebuild the country, probably 50 have died or never gone back. And this was a very primitive, backwater country to begin with - Far less sophisticated even at the time of the Soviet “invasion” than any of its neighbors.
Nope, most of the educated class, such as it were, is gone. And the people, as Collounsbury quite rightly pointed out, are utterly exhausted and desparate for peace. Probably at just about any cost. And the dominant ethnic group of Afghanistan, the Pushtoons ( corrupted to “Pathan” by the British ) or Afghans proper, have always been a very conservative people. Hill and mountain folk, deeply religious and superstitious. And almost unbelievably bellicose ( like a lot of mountain people around the world ). The Taliban is to some extent a recent phenomena, nutured by imported Saudi religious doctrine ( Wahhabi Sunnism ). But actually a lot of this crap is directly tied to old-fashioned puritannical values from hills. I very much fear that a majority of the remaining people in Afghanistan actually more or less support this turn to extreme religiosity ( if you can call it that ).
The people who don’t are most likely to be the minority ethnic groups from the northern plains ( and hills ). Tajiks, Uzbek Turks, Hazaras, Arabs, and others. The areas of prime recruitment for the old government ( pro-Soviet ) army. Biut they’re utnumbered, outfought, and on the run. And surrounded by hundreds of miles of not much to run to.
And in an utterly prostrate country, let’s face it - This may not seem like much to a devastated people. Okay you have to wear beards if you’re a man. Better than getting shot. Okay you have to wear a veil and can’t work or get an education. Better than getting bombed. Okay the blew up some old statues. Whoopity-doo. Okay they’re marking a few Hindus. Well it’s for their own protection, right?
It’s garbage. But after decades of total warfare, of a sort not even experienced in Rwanda or the Congo, you start grasping at straws. If nothing else, the Taliban HAVE provided stability for the first time since the late seventies/early eighties.
And of course the Taliban have been extraordinarily effective at monopolizing military power and stifling opposition. Even if there is a will to resist ( which their probably isn’t much ), the way ain’t really there.
-Tamerlane
Man I type slow. Err…What Collounsbury said. Only minus a fuck or two 
.
- Tamerlane
Collounsbury: Actually, if you don’t mind me scolding gently, you probably shouldn’t be quite so harsh. I do agree with you 
. Things aren’t nearly as simple as “just pack up and leave.” But heck, I can relate to the outrage as well. It really is a frustrating situation.
Have some more Bacardi 
.
- Tamerlane
Is it wrong that in the middle of a serious discussion about the evils of the Taliban, I can become aroused by this statement?
It has to be wrong. I am so going to hell…
Collounsbury, you don’t have many friends, do you?
You are the worst kind of know-it-all, you’re actually right so you think that excuses your behavior. Didn’t anyone ever sit you down when you were a kid and explain how no one likes a sore loser, but people despise a sore winner?
Would it have killed you to gently set me straight, a la Tamerlane? From what I’ve seen of you, it aparently would have.
I realize the impracticality of hopping on a plane to Pakistan to help out refugees when I have a toddler, but I resent you saying that I wouldn’t last 4 hours and implying that I would (or will) do nothing other than rage against the Taliban. You know nothing about me and to suggest that I am a talker, not a doer, really upsets me.
In case you hadn’t noticed, I move a LOT. I find that volunteering is one of the best ways to get to know my new neighborhood and meet new people all while giving back to the same community that has welcomed a transplant with open arms.
In Cincinnati, I was a docent at the Historical Society Museum. In Boston, my husband sat on the board of the Children’s Museum and I was an active participant in fund-raisers. Here in San Jose, I’ve become a provisional member of a group of slightly delusional woman who, despite their elitist attitude, actually do good work.
In every aspect of my life, I’m thinking about how I can help others. My landscaper planted marigold and petunias (which I hate), I yanked them all and planted something different and donated the still living flowers to a local preschool undergoing renovations.
I wanted to throw a party in the neighborhood to get the neighbors together so I organized a poker party here at my home. We had 14 people playing poker ($10 got you $1000 worth of chips) and the winner got to choose the charity the money went to. We raised $450 for Habitat for Humanity. A paltry sum, but we had fun and it was better than losing your money to the crazy guy from across the street with the yapping dog.
I’m hurt by your response to me and I feel sad for you, that you felt the need to attack me in that way.
And this:
was downright cruel! I would never drive a fucking Ford.
Don’t worry about it. That article is more full of shit than a portajohn on the third day of Lollapalooza. The aid program, which started under Clinton, goes to great lengths to limit the amount of aid that goes to the Taliban to the very minimum necessary to get them to allow the delivery of the rest of the aid directly to the people.
The main component of the assistance is raw wheat, associated foodstuffs and seed, all delivered directly to end users.
Here is Secretary Powell announcing the renewal of the program, and Here is a press briefing on it.
Crap. The last sentence got cut off. Anyway, I was saying that you can keep your Republican registration – we could use some more of us in NYC. Just don’t show it to anyone on the upper west side!
Collounsbury, Tamerlane, or whoever else may have information: what do we do? Are there any organizations set up right now getting aid to these people? Are there any organized movements or protests aimed at getting the immigration gates opened for people from Afghanistan? Who do I send my money to, write my letters to, raise my voice to? What actions are you all taking? (I’m in no way trying to be snotty or sarcastic…I just want to know what my next step should be).
P.S. manhattan, I’d like to comment that I love that you use the word “spazzing” - brings back all sorts of happy 7th grade memories
C3, one good place to start might be RAWA (I don’t remember what the acronym stands for off the top of my head, sorry). The last time I was there they had pretty up to date information (and also a lot of rather gruesome film/pictures, so be careful poking around). I believe they have information on how to donate there, and may have links to other places with similar outlooks.
Is anybody else completely freaked out by the fact that there is a “Ministry for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice”? I mean, damn, do they think nobody knows what this crap really means?
Damn, but that’s grim.
May God Have Mercy On Their Souls.
Besides the fact that it wouldn’t kill anybody (unless they were underneath one of the crates), I bet it would be a lot cheaper than a shooting war.
However, I think Britney Spears CDs would be a violation of the Geneva Convention.
Well, since I have been scolded twice for being so harsh I suppose I should apologize, although I remain frustrated with the fact everytime Taleban (or similar) topics pop up people say the same thing. Blame the victim or bomb the shit out of them. I tire of such responses.
Sure I do, I’m a charming if irrascable bastard.
True, true. I am a bad person.
No, but this is the pit after all and Tamerlane’s reasonable post wasn’t as entertaining to me, personally.
However in re the other question, assistance I might suggest contacting (although I confess being more up on Sudan than Afghanistan):
(a) The State Department’s Bureau for Refugees to request updated information in re US programs:
2401 E St. NW Suite L505 Washington, D.C. 20522-0105 Telephone (202) 663-3952 Fax (202) 663-1530
(b) UNICEF is usually a reliable choice for basic work,
To make direct donations:
http://www.supportunicef.org/forms/whichcountry2.html
or more directly for most
https://secure09.client-mail.com/cfirstlink/forms/supportform_us.htm (United States) (whose fund site generally is Humanitarian Aid for Children in Crisis | UNICEF USA )
(c) UNHCR also recieves and needs private help:
http://www.unhcr.ch/youhelp/youhelp.htm
however, potentially more useful is this document
http://www.unhcr.ch/fdrs/ga2001/afg.pdf
which also notes UNHCR’s partner organizations to whom you may give.
(d) consulting Relief Web can give you an idea of who seems to be achieving something:
See, e.g. http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/vID/C8F4141890FF2FE0C1256A50004AB114?OpenDocument
Also in re Unicef, http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/vID/C2E5AE307A8EAA0585256A490057D362?OpenDocument
In regards to refugee issues, I don’t know where you are located. If the USA, please write to the current members of the Senate and House members of the immigration committees. The proper names escape me presently but you can get this off the web. I spent several years doing this after the 1996 immigration ‘reform’ act, it can have an effect. I long volunteered, back when I was in the USA, with organizations like LCHR, Human Rights Watch. LCHR is more action oriented and provides direct legal services for free to political refugees. So does the ACLU I think.
I recall that http://www.irsa-uscr.org/ was useful but have not had contact with this in some time. I’ve been away for a while so I’m afraid this is all I have.
For myself, I’ve tried to put a finger into Sudanese issues given my proximity, but that’s not relevant here.
Sue, I think the reason Collounsbury got so abrasive is that your post implied-though I am sure that you didn’t mean to–that those Afganis don’t love thier kids as much as you do, since they aren’t willing to suffer for thier kids in the way that you are willing to suffer. Considering the incredible trials that they have faced over the last thirty years, and the incredible luxury that we all share here in the developed world, that comes across as a little condecending and a little naive. Afgani mothers love their daughters, and after assessing the situation–having access to much knowledge we don’t have–and have made the best choices they can see. That those choices seem incomprehensible to us is simply becasue the entire situation is incomprehensible to us.
“May God Have Mercy On Their Souls.”
Yeah. That’s gonna happen. Reminds me of one of the many bombing attacks on Israel, when an Israeli was interviewed and said, “We are going to stay here—God will protect us,” and I couldn’t help going over God’s track record at “protecting Jews” in my mind . . .
I wasn’t refering to the victims, but to the Taliban. “May God Have Mercy…” is the traditional last line of a death sentence. They’ll need all the mercy there is, because I’m reasonably sure they’re up for a long stint in a particularly nasty corner of Hell.
God will, I believe, have mercy and love for the souls of the victims of the Taliban in the next world, but that doesn’t mean that they’ll be spared the Hell On Earth of Taliban rule in this world.