The 16th Annual Steelers March to the Super Bowl Thread

There’s definitely some truth to that. Bad teams get frustrated, are undisciplined, and give up yards after they make unnecessary late hits or taunt or whatever to vent their frustration. Or, more simply, they just make mistakes that lead to penalties, because bad teams have bad players.

Of course, sometimes good teams and good players get lots of penalties too. Some people push the envelope and it can lead to great plays but if done wrong or pushed too far break the rules.

I don’t think it’s indicative of any kind of bias though. I believe that’s what you’re insisting and I agree with you.

Ten most penalized teams in 2017:

9-7 Seattle
6-10 Miami
13-3 Philly
10-6 Kansas City
10-6 Jacksonville
4-12 Houston
6-10 San Francisco
11-5 New Orleans
5-11 Jets
5-11 Chicago

5 Winning Teams (including 4 division winners), 5 losing teams

Ten least penalized teams in 2017:
11-5 Carolina
9-7 Baltimore
3-13 NY Giants
7-9 Washington
4-12 Indianapolis
7-9 Green Bay
9-7 Dallas
13-3 New England
9-7 Tennesse
9-7 Buffalo

6 winning teams (1 division winner, 3 wildcards), 4 losing teams.

Its like the only bias, is that of the people claiming that there is a bias. (with the obvious exception that pass interference must be called on every Aaron Rodgers incompletion :wink: )

When your team is performing sub-par, it’s very tempting to view everything through the lens of explaining away bad results. This means that, if you have a lot of penalties, that’s not your team’s fault, but the fault of referees. If you have a seeming lot of non-calls that go against you, that’s not because they really weren’t penalties, but evidence of bias on the part of referees. If your quarterback gets sacked a lot, that’s not a bad offensive line, but rather the failure of referees to have called things correctly, hindering your O-line players and helping the opponents. Etc.

Anytime you start acting like it’s all a result of bias on the part of referees, you probably should simply step back and ask someone neutral to critique your viewpoint. :wink:

Here’s the problem with counting the number of penalties to analyze the bias of the refs: you’re missing the critical half of the data. The data you need is how many penalties were actually committed versus how many called.

As an example, two teams play. Each has 10 penalties called against them for a similar amount of yards. The refs must be unbiased and got one right, eh? They’ve called each side equally.

Except what if one team actually committed 2 penalties and the other one committed 20? Now suddenly the “balanced” 10 penalties on each side is not even remotely fair - one team was extremely favored by the refs (only being called for half their committed penalties) and the other team was screwed by the refs (by counting mostly phantom penalties against them)

So what you would need to determine bias is a data set that we don’t have - we’d need to know what perfect refs would’ve called versus what our fallible refs actually did call.

In order to objectively gather that data, you’d have to get someone knowledgeable in the rules to go back and view every game, coming up with an objective-as-possible penalty list vs the actual penalties called. And obviously we don’t have that.

But, to a very flawed extent, that’s what you can do on your own when you watch a lot of games closely. You’re building your own mental count of what you see vs what actually gets called, and seeing what patterns emerge.

This is fraught with biases of its own - you’ll be partisan about your own team and against teams you dislike - so it’s certainly a flawed method of analysis. But having flaws in the process does not mean that it’s without merit and could not have merit. If there actually were an imbalance in officiating, people would notice it in this way, and likely be called partisan and dismissed even if it were a real effect.

But let’s take two example teams that I have no particular bias towards or against. In my estimation, based on having watched dozens of games, the Patriots get more of their fair share of favorable officiating, and the Lions tend to receive unfavorable officiating. Do I have the hard data to back me up? No, there’s no PFF-like ref evaluation service publically available. It’s just something learned from observation over time, and given that I don’t care if either team wins or lose, I have no particular reason to skew those observations. Having me unable to prove this point is not the same as saying it’s not real - because the default assumption otherwise is that the refs operate perfectly without any real biases of any sort, which is itself a pretty unlikely thing.

Why do you assume that referees have biases against or for teams? As a person who has refereed (soccer, not football, but at high levels), I can assure you I did not ever have a conscious bias for or against a team when it came time to referee the game. I suspect that any perceived bias is simply confirmation of some concept that you have as an individual bought into, and that doesn’t have to be based upon your own personal team preferences.

“Objective” is the key word in your post SenorBeef. Believe me, I’ve lived in Minnesota for over 10 years, so while I’m still a Steelers fan because that’s where I lived for the first 27 years of my life, I casually follow the Vikings with no real emotional attachment. The bias in every discussion on Vikings local talk radio and by fans is so clearly over the top, and here’s the thing… it seems they actually think they’re being objective. But to the outside eye, its pretty clear and amusing.

But here’s where we differ. I don’t think there’s really any significant bias in refereeing. Look at LeBron, he might get a few extra calls here and there, but they’re totally offset by all the calls he doesn’t get because he’s a monster of a man. Same went for Shaq. I hate the Patriots, but I don’t think they get any more favorable calls/no-calls their way than any other team, and to think otherwise is just sour grapes. I think the exception to this rule is the veteran pitching ace in baseball, who will get those borderline strike calls a lot more than the rookie pitcher.

Does anyone here know (or have a good link) if the Steelers get salary cap relief in 2019 for Bell’s forfeited salary? or is that cap space only freed up in 2018?

Just looking for a silver lining to the whole thing. Since he’s forfeited $6.8M, seems like the Steelers could restructure some folks to achieve a more friendly cap number going forward, or maybe sign a big free agent next year.

Given the events yesterday, does it really matter who wins?

Yes, it does.

Pittsburgh 28, Cleveland 10. No 6 turnovers or ties today, Browns fans.

And no, it really doesn’t matter. I was joking. Still, Here We Go!

I dunno about the former, but any extra cap space a team ends the year with is rolled over to the next, which is why every team has a slightly different cap.

Terrible execution on the free kick. What is the league minimum salary? If I am paying a guy six figures to play a kid’s game, he better know the rulebook inside and out. Not a single Steeler was aware of the rule. That’s on Tomlin. I’ve had it with his lax and shitty discipline.

Anyone notice that every time Hue Jackson is shown on television he’s making a face like his application to adopt a kitten just got denied?

Glad to see the Steelers assert their will in quarters 2-4 after a hairy first quarter. (aside from the inexplicable free kick… sheesh).

That free kick debacle and the plays after that were some of the worst football I’ve ever seen out of a Pittsburgh team. The first quarter was a mess.

The rest, though, was pretty damn good. You’re welcome for Haley, by the way. The Browns’ defense is pretty good but the offense is not, and it’s not from lack of talent. Mayfield is going to be good for a long time and the receivers are at least acceptable if not at Pittsburgh’s level. No, it’s the playcalling. You’re getting a really good look at what’s pissed Steelers fans off for years. He wastes the talent around him.

Trade deadline come and gone. Looks like the Stillers will get a halfway decent RB for the rest of the season. Unless they rescind the franchise tag.

At this point Conner actually has better stats than Bell at the same point in any season he’s played. He doesn’t look as spectacular doing it, but the results are all that matter.

Bell is either completely convinced that he’s going to get a contract that Conner played him out of or he’s stuck and has to see it through no matter what. Either way, it’s been a dumb strategy for him. Truthfully, I don’t think Pittsburgh wants him back. He says he wants to stay but won’t show, and now that the trade deadline has passed there’s nothing left to do but show. Conner took his job, so what do they need him for?

I half want to see Bell forget when the absolute last second report date is so we can watch him do this all over again next year. The other half of me no longer cares. But, barring injury to Conner, there isn’t any of me that wants to see him on the field this year. My understanding and patience with this disappeared weeks ago.

And today Conner gets AFC Player of the Month.

Bell should be firing his agent and reporting yesterday.

This is my feeling as well. I would prefer to have a dedicated and in-shape Bell. But that’s not what we have, and Conner is doing a fine job.

I know Haley got a lot of flak. He didn’t get along with Ben and he’s apparently difficult to get along with generally. But I felt he was a major step up from Arians. During his tenure they put together a solid o-line and an offense where Ben isn’t taking a beating week after week.

Defense was our weakness during the Haley era, not the offense.

I’ve accepted that its time for the Steelers to move on from Bell.

But I wouldn’t say Bell has done anything stupid, he’s just going the EXTREMELY safe route. Reports are that the $70M contract offer from the Steelers had only $10M guaranteed. I think Gurley had something like $40M guaranteed in his contract. So while he is passing on up to $14M of guaranteed money this year, its almost certain that some team will offer him a contract with more guaranteed money than $14M.

So ultimately he wasn’t willing to take the risk of a career ending injury for $14M in the case of the franchise tag, or $10M in the case of signing the contract offer. Not saying I like it, or it was the right move, just saying its the extremely safe move for him to make. We’ll never know if was the “right” move, because there is some non-zero chance that he could have suffered a career ending injury in 2018. To me personally, $14M is worth the risk, but I know for damn sure no one is going to offer me $40M guaranteed next year… Bell, not so much.

Today is the rematch with the hated Ratbirds. I can’t for the life of me figure out why they scheduled these games so early in the season when they always have meaning later on with exciting endings, but whatever. This has big division implications, if the Rats win they sweep and hold the upper hand while Pittsburgh still has to play the likes of New England. Pittsburgh is coming off a great couple of games while Baltimore is coming off a game where they were dominated by the Panthers.

Pittsburgh ought to win this but it’s in Baltimore and anything can (and usually does) happen.

Pittsburgh 24, Ratbirds 21.

One more thing: Bell has to show by Saturday or he’s done for the year and he gets to do this all over again next year. I don’t care what he does, but I’ll be glad it’s over. I am sick to death of the whole situation and I hope he doesn’t show up and fracture the whole team. There’s been enough discord in Pittsburgh this year.

Not to derail the thread, but I completely agree with your complaint about the scheduling. The Chiefs-Broncos matchups always produce exciting football, generally with divisional implications. They’re already done for the year.

If I had my way, the first 3 weeks of the season would be solely divisional games, as would the last 3 weeks of the season.

…and the season just went to shit. Ben down with an apparent throwing shoulder injury.

At least it’s not Landry Fucking Jones.