Speaking of Gossage I saw a cool fact today; Gossage’s 308th career save, on July 23 1991, saved Nolan Ryan’s 308th career win.
Oh, I absolutely agree Billy Wagner deserves a spot in the John Olerud Hall of Very Good: far, far from Cooperstown. I just think that there are relievers not named Rivera who deserve their spot in the Hall.
I think Wagner is prett clearly Astros. I would go Indians for Sabathia though he will probably go with Yankees.
I would have to agree - but for the most part, not CLOSERS.
Gossage, Wilhelm? Sure, I can see that. But Billy Wagner? Look, I’m sorry, a guy with 900 innings is a fringe choice at best. If someone wants to say he’s not the worst Hall of Famer ever and in fact is a greater player than guys with similar apparent career values like the immortals Melvin Mora, Terry Puhl, and Sixto Lezcano, sure, you can make those arguments, they basically being
- Value metrics don’t consider the importance of the specific innings he pitched,
- A metric like WAR ignores the fact he is further above AVERAGE than someone like Terry Puhl; Wagner may have had a part time career but he was great when playing, and
- I dunno, let’s be nice to closers.
I don’t agree the arguments are convincing though.
Sabathia pitched more in New York, won more games there, was at least as valuable, and won a World Series there. I think Yankees is appropriate.
I think that pretty much covers it. I agree with your take - closers are, for the most part, overrated. I do think you can’t compare them inning-for-inning to starters (at least well), as the innings that closers pitch are higher leverage situations.
Luckily, we do have a stat that attempts to quantify that - Win Probability Added. Wagner has a pretty solid WPA (it’s 29.1). Here’s where the other HOF closers pan out:
Rivera: 56.6
Hoffman: 34.2
Smith: 21.3
To me, all that argues is that Rivera should be the only closer in the Hall. Hoffman isn’t a terrible choice, he’s right on the cusp - but I don’t buy it. (I certainly don’t buy how he was a Cy Young runner-up twice in his career!)
I admit I find WPA a little problematic and I strongly suspect it actually OVERSTATES the value of relievers - but relative to one another, once again, Mo is way, way ahead. And this doesn’t even count playoffs.
Hoffman’s two Cy Young runnerups are just weird. But sometimes when there’s no clear frontrunner, leading the league in saves stands out I guess.
Yeah - I love the concept of WPA, but am suspect as well on its actual execution.
As closers go, Hoffman is really one of the best to do it. He was a dominant finesse guy, if that’s a thing. Put his b-ref page next to Wagner’s, and I just can’t make an argument that Wagner was half the pitcher Hoffman was.
I guess what I find odd about the Wagner push is that he is not obviously to me a standout choice even among relief pitchers. His ERA= is astounding but, again, in limited time, and with no contribution at all to playoff success.
Like, can anyone explain why Dan Quisenberry isn’t in the Hall if Wagner is? How about Tug McGraw? Tom Henke?
One of the best signs a guy is a marginal choice is if you can’t really explain why he’s not different from other guys you don’t want to vote for.
Wagner will be enshrined as an Astro, and CC will be a Yankee.
Interesting blurb on Twitter: John Smoltz is the only Hall of Famer pitcher who has undergone Tommy John surgery. Just seems amazing as it seems pitchers undergo TJ surgery more often than they get a new jockstrap these days.
Interesting indeed, though, there are a few other such pitchers, who are currently active, and are at least potential (if not likely) Hall of Famers:
- Justin Verlander
- Chris Sale
- Shohei Ohtani
There is one other Hall of Famer who had TJ surgery: infielder/DH Paul Molitor.
Verlander is a slam dunk. Ohtani will be a slam dunk once he’s played ten seasons.
Pete Rose in the Hall of Fame?
https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2025/05/13/mlb-reinstates-pete-rose/
New thread on the topic:
To avoid hijacking that other thread, I’ll bring up a somewhat related topic here. What do you all suppose that ruling does, if anything, to help the PED users who haven’t made it in? Do Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, and A-Rod have a better chance now of getting in? If they do, what about guys like Andy Pettitte or Jose Canseco, who might not have had the numbers without the PEDs?
Probably little, or nothing.
Only one MLB player has ever gotten a lifetime ban for PEDs, and it’s a guy that most people have never heard of (former Mets pitcher Jenrry Meija; he was later reinstated).
Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod, etc. were never permanently banned, and most of them (Rodriguez a notable exception) were never even temporarily suspended for PEDs, mostly because MLB had a weak PED policy for most or all of their playing careers.
We’ll see what happens when their candidacies go into the hands of the Veterans Committees. I guess I wouldn’t be surprised if they, like Rose, may wind up being on the outside, looking in, while they’re still alive.
The Hall already has several PED users enshrined, so it really doesn’t matter that guys like Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod eventually get in. Other guys, like Pettitte, McGwire and Canseco, weren’t ‘great’ enough, PEDs or not.