The addictive properties of marijuana, and discussion of other drugs

[bbs2k]

Hi, for once I am not trying to derail a thread, so I’m starting a new one in GD regarding drugs and addiction. Wee Bairn and I are disagreeing about the addictive properties of marijuana in a Cafe thread:

@Wee Bairn

And I understand they want diversity, but the black chick “addicted” to a non-addictive drug is a fucking joke- YOU CANNOT BE ADDICTED TO POT DR. DREW. We can’t take you seriously if you say its similar to heroin. And quit taking notes all serious like, you know this a trainwreck.

@bbs2k

Yes you can. Your post is my cite, he’s a licensed physician.

@Wee Bairn

Clarification- not physically. Maybe mentally if you’re weak minded. Or you’re trying to find an excuse for bad choices. For him to compare it to a herion addiction, which is physically addictive to the point that the body breaks down and cannot function without it, is pretty damn unprofessional. Her mom’s concern for her had nothing to do with the drugs effects, except on her lungs. Bad Dr. Drew, bad. You may really really like getting high and really really don’t want to quit, but there’s a difference in not wanting to and can’t. I like Twinkies and don’t want to stop eating them, that doesn’t mean they are physically addictive.

@bbs2k

I know my post seemed snarky, it wasn’t meant to be. I’ll dig up a better cite later when I get home, but I tremendously disagree with blaming addiction on being “weak-minded”.

Believe it or not but about 3 hours before reading his posts I was in complete agreement. I had listened to people argue that pot was sort of the safe and recreational drug that was only dangerous as a “gate-way” drug. I was listening to some classic Loveline on the way into work that night though and heard Dr. Drew Pinsky himself describe marijuana as a drug that can have some scary effects on people related to actual addiction, and not the half-addiction sort of thing for those who are “weak-minded”.

@bbs2k doing his best at transcribing the show from 9/5/06

Sarah (17): I’m trying to get sober and am having a hard time at it, but I…

Dr. Drew: What drug?

Sarah (17): Um, basically anything, my drug of choice is probably pot. But I’ll do anything I have.

Dr. Drew: Have you been in a 12 step program?
<snip>

**
Norm MacDonald**: Can I ask a question? I’ve never heard of a person who does every drug say that their drug of choice is marijuana.

Dr. Drew: Oh, it happens all the time. Marijuana addicts love pot. They would gladly… what happens with pot is that it affects everybody the same in terms of when it becomes addictive, but it doesn’t become addictive to everybody. But when it does it is immediate. First couple of times you smoke pot nothing usually happens, but the first time you get high it’s like “oh my God, this is the greatest thing to ever happen to me.” And that’s all they think about from that point on, and they’ll use every single day from then on or at least think about it. And somewhere down the line, maybe years down the line, it stops working. And that’s when they start getting depressed, getting irritable, so they begin to smoke a lot more and that accelerates the decline, and then they switch to something else. But if the pot had kept working, I have never met a marijuana addict who didn’t wish that they could get the feeling they want out of the pot.

Norm: Yah, but she’s saying she does all the drugs.

Dr. Drew: Yah but still, when people often get off the drugs pot is the one they miss most often usually. It is very highly euphoric for some people. And the withdrawals are very much like heroin.

Norm: Are what?!

Dr. Drew: Very much like heroin. When it effects that system *that *way it has clearly an endorphin effects, in some people.

I have the mp3 of that show and listened to it about fourteen times to try and get all the wording right, I apologize if I made some small mistakes.

Now I know Loveline is an entertainment program, but unlike Dr. Phil, Dr. Drew is an actual board certified physician, addiction medicine specialist, and currently still licensed to practice in California (cite ). With his history, past and current, of treating many patients suffering from addiction I am going to take his words as my cite that pot really is more addictive than a lot more people realize. Granted he admitted that it does not affect everyone the same, and many people who were not prone to addiction to begin with would be safe from it’s addictive properties, but I just wanted to share.

Also, Wee Bairn provided fine enough citations to back up his major points, this is more of a question of general understanding and possibly mirsepresented defenses of the recreational use of marijuana.
Full disclosure: I have smoked pot probably three times in the past four years.

Also, before I previewed I started this thread off with : High, for once I am not trying to derail a thread,

[Spoke]

I don’t know about addictive, but it certainly seems to become habitual for some folks.

[Thudlow_Boink]

@spoke-

I don’t know about addictive, but it certainly seems to become habitual for some folks.

But that may be the crux of the debate: distinguishing between a habit and an addiction.

[Ghanima]

I think pot is as addictive as sugar or sex or chocolate. In other words, relatively easy to kick but addictive nonetheless.

[bbs2k]

@Thudlow Boink

But that may be the crux of the debate

And the crux of my debate is that an actual doctor, with a lot of real life experience in regards to the subject has said that he has seen first hand the real strong addictive and properties of marijuana. Not with everyone mind you, but it does exist even though some seem to pass it off as just a “weak minded” bad habit.

[Wee_Bairn]

@Ghanima

I think pot is as addictive as sugar or sex or chocolate. In other words, relatively easy to kick but addictive nonetheless.

Exactly. I posted a legit cite in the other thread which shows caffeine is more addictive than pot, and I don’t know of any caffeine rehab centers.

To quote from above:

*Dr. Drew: Yah but still, when people often get off the drugs pot is the one they miss most often usually. It is very highly euphoric for some people. And the withdrawals are very much like heroin. *

Agree 100% with the first part. Pot’s great- it makes you feel great, makes food taste better, music sound better, things funnier, sex better, etc. who’s not gonna miss that? But “withdrawal like heroin”? Bullshit with a capital B. Have you ever seen someone “fiending” for heroin? Now, have you ever seen some doing same for pot? No you haven’t.
*Dr. Drew: Very much like heroin. When it effects that system that way it has clearly an endorphin effects, in some people. *

I’m not a doctor of course, but I agree here, with the caveat that the good feeling leaves when the high wears off, like nitrous oxide. It’s no wonder Norm was mocking Dr. Drew. He’s smoked pot a lot, perhaps Dr Drew hasn’t and is going by what people making excuses for bad choices have told him- blame pot on you’re laziness, fine. And it does make you lazy, and you do need more to get high if you do it a lot. Biut if you don’t go to work and get fired and blame it on your pot “addiciton” youre a fraud.

As I said in the other thread, I probably smoked pot 300 days in 2006 and due to factors out of my control, not once since Jan 1, and you know what- not a problem. And my pot buddies are the same- will get high and love it when we have it, when we don’t, no big deal. All have jobs, houses, kids, families, etc. Not one problem due to pot. I don’t think there are many recreational heroin users out there.

bb2k, if your only cite is going to be Dr Drew said it so its true, there’s nothing to debate. Others are citing real first hand experience. I’m not questioning the good doctors motives, but he does get paid to treat pot “addictions”.

[BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed]

@Ghanima

I think pot is as addictive as sugar or sex or chocolate. In other words, relatively easy to kick but addictive nonetheless.

Well, some people do have addictive personalities to whom sex or chocolate (or sweets or overeating etc) are as hard to kick as nicotine. Hence the 12 step programs for those addictions. But yeah, the real crux is defining an addiction.

I like beef jerky. I like it a lot. I love taking it out of the bag, gnawing on it, the way it feels between my teeth while I’m chewing, the salts it puts in my body. It’s kind of like a pick-me-up. But I don’t eat it every day. I don’t even think about it every day. But every so often I get a craving for it. Steak won’t do, although a nice juicy steak is fantastic. Nope, it has to be jerky.

Can we replace jerky with pot in that paragraph (and steak with alcohol, perhaps? Maybe satvia?) and decide whether I’m addicted? If I were somewhere I couldn’t get jerky, I wouldn’t go nuts. I’d be able to live there, for months, years, and not feel a gap, like something’s missing in my life. But I’d wish it were there all the same. Is that an addiction?

To respond more closely to the OP, I’ve never heard anything like what Dr Drew’s describing. Gateway drug I’ll buy, but withdrawal effects like heroin? I don’t buy it. I’m not saying he’s lying or mistaken, but how common is that occurrence? Should those people be looked at like they have a disease/allergy? Some people are allergic to alcohol (Asia, I’m looking in your direction), but we don’t talk about the normal effects of alcohol in regards to how it affects people who are allergic to it.

Obviously not a doctor here, just spouting off about experiences with pot.

[Marley23]

@bbs2k

And the crux of my debate is that an actual doctor, with a lot of real life experience in regards to the subject has said that he has seen first hand the real strong addictive and properties of marijuana.

That’s an appeal to authority, and since he’s working in entertainment I don’t think it’s a very good one. I agree that pot can be psychologically addictive, but even when teachers in high school were telling me that pot was a deadly drug, they never said it had withdrawal similar to heroin. It seems to me that you can get addicted to almost any damn thing.

[Superfluous_Parentheses]

@Ghanima

I think pot is as addictive as sugar or sex or chocolate. In other words, relatively easy to kick but addictive nonetheless.

I think you’re about right there. On the other hand, pot has a much stronger (or at least to me, more noticeable) effect on your mental state than any of those, which can make it harder to quit / take it easy.

I’ve smoked pot almost daily for a couple of years and “quit” (I still smoke about once every couple of months) when I found it was having too much of a negative impact on my confidence. Much, much easier mentally than quitting smoking and with no physical side-effects that I can remember. And the physical side-effects of giving up smoking are (for me) mostly light constipation, tense muscles and hyper-activity which all go away after two to three days. From what I know, quitting heroin is physically much harder than that.

I also can and do smoke pot once in a while and not fall back, while smoking a couple of cigarettes brings back the cravings big time.

As for pot being a gateway drug; only so far as that people who are likely to try drugs are also likely to try pot because it’s pretty safe, pretty cheap and widely available.

[Mytoehurts]

Actually there are plenty of recreational heroin users out there, and millions who take cocaine without much difficulty.

Certainly, physical addiction exists; it is, however, medically quite easy to treat. But real addiction comes essentially from weak mindedness, and I have no sympathy for addicts whatsoever except in the sense that I feel sorry that most are under pressure not to take drugs when they know in their hearts that taking them is fine.

Incidentally, out of all the drugs that I have taken (and I’m under the influence of a couple right now) cannabis has been the worst for affecting my mind outside of taking it - it slows me mentally for weeks. I don’t think anything else that I have taken has anything like as long lasting side effects (maybe valium, but I only took that once or twice).

[Ludovic]

I think getting addicted to marijuana is a surefire sign you were molested as a child.

[Wee_Bairn]

Pot is a gateway drug for teens the same way McDonalds is a gateway job.

Maybe Dr Drew should subject himself to this test, in the name of science- smoke pot every day for six months, then stop and chart what happens. Then do the same with heroin.

[RedFury]

@Dr Drew

Yah but still, when people often get off the drugs pot is the one they miss most often usually. It is very highly euphoric for some people. And the withdrawals are very much like heroin.

Asstalk. As others have said it may become a craving for some…but saying that pot withdrawal is “heroin-like” is simply a lie. And not because I’ve gone through either (never have or would try heroin, I’d still do a doobie if offered and/or where it’s legal) but because of the substances involved in each drug and how they affect the brain and body. No comparison.

Hell I’d throw alcoholism and tabacco in there as much harder to quit that pot.

[RedFury]

Gateway drug? Try milk instead. For what addict hasn’t had some prior to becoming one?

Ban milk!

[Wee_Bairn]

@RedFury

Hell I’d throw alcoholism and tabacco in there as much harder to quit that pot.

So would those who did this study- and no, they aren’t a division of NORML.

[bbs2k]

@RedFury

Hell I’d throw alcoholism and tabacco in there as much harder to quit that pot.

I don’t believe he was referring to a “harder to quit” factor as much as he was describing how in his experience those who have “sobered up” miss the experience so much more. I apologize if the tone was lost in transcription, but if I gave the link of the website that hosts downloadable programs of complete episodes it’d crash after the first two or three dozen.

[Superfluous_Parentheses]

@Wee Bairn

So would those who did this study- and no, they aren’t a division of NORML.

What I find Interesting about that is that it claims withdrawal symptoms of alcohol are more severe than those of heroin. What are the withdrawal symptoms for severe alcoholics?

[Superfluous_Parentheses]

@Superfluous Parentheses

What I find Interesting about that is that it claims withdrawal symptoms of alcohol are more severe than those of heroin. What are the withdrawal symptoms for severe alcoholics?

found this and some other sites that claim that (unstoppable!) Delerium Tremens can be a consequence of going cold turkey off alcohol. That’s fucking scary.

[Wee_Bairn]

@Superfluous Parentheses

What I find Interesting about that is that it claims withdrawal symptoms of alcohol are more severe than those of heroin. What are the withdrawal symptoms for severe alcoholics?

\

DT’s for the worst cases.

bb2k, if he was saying years after quitting, fomer pot users when polled claim to miss pot on a scale of 1 to 10 at a similar rate as former heroin users, I could possibly see that. But that’s not what he said.

[Tamerlane]

Sorry about that, I posted in the wrong thread. My reply to comments made there are here: http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=9359101&postcount=25