The American Coup: 11.9.2020 -

Politics & Elections
1342

No one calms down when ordered to do so–it only makes things worse. It just comes off as dismissive.

Your statement that Trump likely won’t succeed in declaring martial law is in fact the consensus of this thread. People are debating whether he’ll try, and what the aftermath would be of him trying.

Your logic does not hold: Trump tried some other things and failed, but that doesn’t mean that trying this thing will fail. That is bad logic, based on nothing but a feeling.

No, the other posters have made better argument for why he will fail–he’s alienated the military enough that it’s unlikely they’d be willing to break the law to follow him. They are hoping that this means he won’t even try, but he might. And the trying is what has got people concerned.

Still, this is not absolute. It is going into untested waters. When has the military had to disobey their Commander-in-Chief due to the “illegal orders” clause? Uncharted territory means there is a chance of failure. It’s not the most likely result, I’ll admit, but it is there. And thus there is value in discussing it.

I would argue the level in this thread is about right. Most are saying it won’t happen, but discussing whether he’ll try and how bad it will be. A few are discussing the highly unlikely but not entirely impossible idea he does succeed.

Looking at the thread as a whole, I think they have it about right.

My complaint is that I’m not sure we’ve really established what “martial law” even means, and how the president can establish it. People seem to be using the term to just mean “a military takeover of the US government,” but I thought it was more nuanced than that. I thought it was basically emergency declaration powers, where the rest of the government is still relevant and could challenge the declaration.

1343

I have said it before and will again; the biggest flaw in Trump’s attempts to seize power illegally is that he didn’t start early enough. That’s what makes this so unlikely to work. Had he worked the plan for a few years he could have pulled it off, but he’s Trump; he’s stupid and short sighted, and long term plans aren’t his thing.

What he has succeeded in doing, though, is made a huge portion of the American people no longer loyal to the Constitution, and that means someone could pull it off next time.

1344

This really has been our saving grace in regard to Trump, and probably the biggest thing that has separated him from more successful authoritarians – he hasn’t had a plan to get “his people” in place to support him when he makes his move to retain power, particularly in regard to the military and the judiciary. Trump actually has shockingly few people in the Administration who bear personal loyalty to him – mostly his kids. He’s surrounded by plenty of opportunists who are willing to go along with his shit as long at it benefits them, but such people are just as likely to slink off when it looks like the tide is going against him.

1345

He would probably be stopped rather quickly by his close aides and people on capitol hill urging him to reconsider. He’d probably take it back, deny ever declaring (or attempting to declare) martial law and insist that he was just asking questions or preparing for an “emergency.”

But suppose he momentarily puts it out there that he’s thinking of declaring martial law…which he kinda already seems to be doing if news reports are accurate. Legally, and in real immediate political terms, nothing changes. There are no substantive consequences.

But its less obvious consequences are extremely destructive: it bolds and underlines the great lie that is being told. And if people can’t see what consequences the great lie is having, well sorry, but they are fucking blind.

The great lie actually forced real elected officials in real life to openly question the results of an election that is essentially incontrovertible according to the facts.

No, wait, check that – the great lie has actually forced an entire fucking political party - one of the two major ones in this country – to question the integrity of an election that is essentially incontrovertible according to the facts.

The great lie has compelled a long-time senator, Lindsey Graham, to pressure state officials in Georgia to try to throw out thousands upon thousands of votes.

The great lie has compelled another senator, Ron Johnson, to hold bogus senate hearings about election fraud that everyone knows never took place.

The great lie has led to countless frivolous lawsuits based on spurious claims.

The great lie has led to calls for secretaries of state to resign merely for acknowledging valid election results.

No, wait, check that – the great lie has called for secretaries of state and a sitting governor to be jailed merely for acknowledging the valid election results.

The great lie has resulted in countless death threats - not only against secretaries of state but contract workers whose only job is to help validate the election results (if that’s even what they’re doing in some cases).

The great lie led one election board member in Michigan to refuse to certify an election result he almost certainly knew was valid – he knew it because he had absolutely no evidence to the contrary.

The great lie has led officials in the republican party to try to disrupt the electoral college vote in state legislatures.

The great lie has influenced the Senate Majority Leader to declare that the “electoral college has spoken” as opposed to acknowledging that the voters, in fact, are the ones who spoke.

The great lie has led republican members of congress to encourage each other to challenge the validity of the election when the vice president (or the person in his place) reads the results of the electoral college votes next month.

Guess what? Anywhere from 50 to 75 million adults believe in this great lie.

And for that reason, the great lie has no end in sight. The great lie will become bigger and bigger, and it will, in the minds of those who believe it, make the enemy bigger and more dangerous, to the point at which they will assert the duty to take extreme measures in the face of an extremely dangerous, albeit imagined, enemy.

1346

This ^

Trump likely won’t succeed in taking the country over, but he has potentially left American democracy mortally wounded anyway.

1347

Why? What’s in it for them? What is the life-expectancy of a Trump toadie who tell the boss “no”?

1348

I highly doubt they’d be jailed, as I would assume that it is blatantly illegal to arrest someone just because…reasons.

I tend to agree that illegal orders would be resisted, and if Trump insisted on following through, he’d have them fired or he’d force them to resign. My guess is, he’d quickly realize that this is bad, bad optics if he goes down the chain of command and they resign one after another – if he doesn’t, surely his aides, Jared, and Ivanka would figure that out soon enough.

But where I disagree with some of the rosier colored glass wearers is that, if this were to happen – and I’m not predicting that it will (I think he’s actually already done quite enough in this regard actually), but if it does – this is not some kind of event that would be shrugged off. I don’t think think the takeaway would be that the system and its checks and balances worked. I think it would only deepen the big lie, and it would have devastating consequences. I think Trump’s administration itself will have devastating consequences – far beyond what we’ve seen already, and already, it’s been quite awful enough.

1349

So, what’s to worry about?

Tuberville’s a good ole boy with a gun and a dog and he loves Jesus an football and he’s from Alabama

Where’s the problem?

1350

Ammon Bundy is interesting. He hates government, and he seems to be consistent about it. He’s motivated by opposition to what he sees as oppressive government actions, most recently surrounding COVID, but certainly not because he’s pro-Trump. There’s obviously a lot of overlap with white supremacist MAGA rednecks in the demographic of his supporters, but the last thing Bundy himself wants is an even more oppressive government run by a narcissistic dictator with jackbooted thugs.

1351

Well, look at the Trumpist reaction to Trump’s failures. Remember when they were crowing about winning the Supreme Court? After the SC snickered the Texas lawsuit out the door, none of that had ever happened. The Supreme Court is corrupt. They are part of the Deep State and on the payroll of the Chinese. Bill Barr? Agent of the Chinese, he’s also deep state. Multiple recounts in Georgia have shown Trump lost the state, right? Nope, the Georgia Republicans that oversaw the election are all paid off by the Chinese. (The obsession with China is quite amazing.)

1352

And that’s really his entire personal history, isn’t it? When it comes down to it, very few people who would have to work closely with him can stand him and stick around only long enough to get what they can from him. If he weren’t such a monster it would seem tragic.

1353

You are horribly misstating the rabid-left’s position. It’s not that there’s not enough evidence, there is absolutely no evidence. Trump was exonerated, remember? Anything that says different is merely “Fake News” repeated by MSM and the lying Democrats in order to tarnish Dear Leader’s reputation.

Again, you are not even on the same page. Don’t you know that Trump was a quadrillionaire before even running for president? His only desire he has for his Presidency is to defend the Constitution and make sure this country remains a Republic, as it was designed, not a Democracy.

Are you kidding? That whole thing was manufactured by the Democrats to get rid of Trump. Nothing was proven, nothing even hinted at any wrongdoing. Obviously, when this illegal impeachment did not work, they developed this clever plan to commit massive fraud, subvert the will of the people, and illegally steal the election.

If you are going to understand their position, you have to know their position. They really and truly believe that Trump does not ever lie. Only Democrats lie, and they lie whenever they open their mouths.

1354

Very good point, but once organized he may not be able to control the monster he’s created. Not sure if it’s a positive or negative, but getting along is not the strong suit of this group. That may mean splinter groups and so no serious threat, but organization on this scale is a big step forward for these folks and leads nowhere good. I notice that the many hardcore Trump supporters around me are no longer talking revolution – I don’t think this is because they’ve abandoned the idea, I think it’s because they’ve gone underground.

1355

Just want to point out that this is categorically false. More often than not, when someone goes off like a loose cannon, they have lost control of their sense of reason. Having someone calmly, but firmly, telling them to gain control of their feeling will, more times than not, get them to reassess their behavior. It does make things worse and comes off as dismissive for people who have lost their rationality to their emotions, but for a great majority of situations, it can help.

As evidence, I point to asahi.

1356

Yeah, over the years I’ve kinda felt like the woman in that Airplane scene and other posters are the passengers, lol

1357

I think you mean rabid-right. And there’s the misunderstanding. I wasn’t representing the thoughts of the Trump brigade, I was outlining the justification used by the likes of Susan Collins to justify party over country, party over Constitution. Don’t you recognize I basically quoted her in one response?

I disagree. Personal experience, being told to calm down is infuriating when you are already are past reason. Online conversations may give someone the time to calm down and reassess, but in person all out does is piss then off more. This is so well known it’s a common joke.

“You need to calm down.”
“I AM CALM!!!”

1358

In case anyone is interested in what the other side is reading, Fox has nothing today on the martial law discussion save for a link to CNN buried deep in a piece about Trump blasting John Bolton. There’s a separate piece on some Virginia state senator calling for “limited” martial law (get the military to seize the machines).

I might owe asahi an apology.

1359

My Bold

You mean “right’s”?

I don’t know that this is the case. They know he lies, they love him for his lies. But he lies only to his and their enemies, but never to them.

1360

You are both correct. I blame it on not enough coffee.

I am not sure of this. From what I have gathered, the “exaggerations” he makes (on occasion) are not really lies. As one of the salesmen who worked where I did told me one time, “If I don’t know for a fact something is not entirely true, it is not a lie.” This, and the corresponding idea that if someone cannot prove that you did not believe what you said, it is not a lie. This covers much of what Trump tweets. What is left gets waved away by any and all “fact-checking” are merely lies from MSM and ignoring what one chooses to ignore.

I do agree with you, his supporters do like they way he “misleads” those with whom they disagree. Which is why I have stopped trying to discuss things with them. If someone does not see the dishonest when their leader “misleads” in his arguments, they are going to do the same. Discussing things with people who will lie to your face and not even understand why that is wrong does not end well.

It usually ends with someone telling me to calm down.

1361

I really think that you are overreacting here. /s :wink:

Fair enough. And I’ve seen enough Trump supporters go to great lengths to explain away his lies to agree that that is what is happening with at least a large cohort of them. Much as I hate Seinfeld, Costanza’s line of “It’s not a lie if you believe it.” still holds very true.

In either case though, they still believe that he is being completely honest with them, would never mislead them.