The Atheist Religion - Part 3

It started losing posts again just like before, showing a post at 4:20 when the last one inside is at 4:11. So, here’s the next incarnation. (We can alternate the "non"s if you insist.)

Here is the atheist philosophy I had proposed:


The Atheist Philosophy

Epistemology: Science

Metaphysics: None

Ethic: The Golden Rule

Aesthetic: Subjective interpretation


and Ayn Rand’s philosophy for comparison.

The Objectivist Philosophy

Epistemology: Reason

Metaphysics: Objective reality

Ethic: Self-interest

Aesthetic: Romantic realism

I won’t argue – you can start just about any thread you want – but I don’t think it was a fault of the thread. It just happens sometimes with many different threads. Give it a minute and a REFRESH or two, and it usually sorts itself out.

Incidentally, here’s the link to Part 2:
http://www.straightdope.com/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000794.html

(And I could add the “(Non)” now if I wanted to anyway. :wink: )

Shows up fine for me, Lib; sometimes it takes a few minutes, or your “refresh rate” might be set too low. On the other hand, these big theads seem to screw the board up. Anyhow, here’s my 4:20 post:

I just don’t think there is a uniform atheist philosophy, Lib, although many of us do have philosophies in common. But to use Glitch as an example again, “Metaphysics: None” would hardly apply to him. As to my personal philosophies, I’d have to figure out what each philosophy meant first before I knew if I endorsed it! I think you are more well-read on the various definitions of philosophical systems than I am. I am kind of leery of a hasty pinning down of my philosophy, too, although I should perhaps work out a consistent system. What if, say, I decide I’m a pragmatist…then do I have to ask myself “what would a pragmatist do in X situation” before I know how I’m supposed to feel? That seems like people who think “I’m a liberal, so I’m for gun control” without actually judging each case on its merits; instead they just think what they think they are “supposed” to think.

The Atheist Philosophy.

I don’t think you will be able to find one. Atheism is too broad of a box, with far too many different sorts of people in it. As we discussed in “The Atheist Relgion”, I don’t identify myself with other atheists but rather with other martial artists. So, I subscribe to the martial artists philosophy rather than an atheistic one.

Epistemology: Science
Metaphysics: None
Ethic: The Golden Rule
Aesthetic: Subjective interpretation

Epistemology. Personally, I would say this is true, but do atheists have to be scientifically minded? I don’t know.

Metaphysics. I am an atheist, but I believe in the supernatural essence and power of the focused human spirit.

Ethic. Again, the core of my ethic is, amongst other things, the “Creation Principle”. This principle, simply stated, is seek out that which creates most and destroys least. Reworded and tweaked you might be able to get it into the Golden Rule.

Aesthetic. Speaking for myself, I would say aesthetically I find simplicity and harmony to be pleasing. For example, I find e=mc^2 to be very beautiful since it describes the universe as being remarkably simple and harmonious. Not sure what aesthetic subjective interpretation means.

To sum up: Atheism is too broad a category of people to apply a set of similar principles to.

David:

Oops. :o I’m sorry.

Right you are. [saluting…] :cool:

Gaudere:

Yeah, I’m probably having more trouble figuring Glitch out than anyone.

I sympathize with how you describe people perceptions of you. As a libertarian, I am generally seen as extremely liberal on social issues (I favor the repeal of all laws of prohibition, all laws against sodomy and other adult consentual activity, and the elimination of limited liablity for corporations), while I am seen as extremely conservative on fiscal issues (I favor elimination of taxes of all kinds, the federal reserve, and social welfare.)

I would love to see how you would develop your philosophy using the standard model, and it’s really easy. Here’s how it’s done. Make four (or five) one or two word summations:

  1. What you believe is the source of knowledge.

  2. What you believe is the cause of existence.

  3. What you believe is your prime directive, or principle of morality.

  4. What you believe is the essence of human perception.

( Optional: 5) What you believe is the best social contract.)

And label them Epistemology, Metaphysics, Ethic, Aesthetic, (Politics).

Please share yours. In fact, will everybody do this please?

Glitch:

Simul. Thanks for sharing that. We can look at these as our own personal philosophies, and not as general ones which, as you say, are probably too broad for any one person.

::scratching head:: Huh? Are you referring to my statement that I don’t want to endorse something just because some hastily-picked philosophical system says I must?

Gaudere:

Oy veh. When I read this: "That seems like people who think “I’m a liberal…”, I read it as “That seems like people who think I’m a liberal…”. Thank God Firefly didn’t see this. :wink: (Just kidding, Fire.)

Still I would like you to do the exercise, if you will.

I will; it may take me a while to get to it. I have been a little distracted today, for some reason. I’ll probably have to revise it a couple times since I do not have a full understanding of the various philosophical systems. Perhaps I will just write a bit what I think about each, and you could tell me what philosophies might describe my beliefs.

It would be a priviledge.

Reality is the source of all knowledge.

Where did reality come from? It did not “come from” anywhere. It was always here, it just changes form now and then (every trillion years or so), and its current form is hospitable to Life As We Know It. Reality’s future form may be totally inhospitable to life, which means there wouldn’t be anyone to debate its meaning and purpose.

It’s only human arrogance that leads some of us to claim that all of existence was ordered into being solely for us and for no other.

If it was always here, then it has no cause. It’s like asking “What is north of the North Pole?” You can’t go north of the North Pole and you can’t find the cause of something that had no origin.

Simple enough. I am genetically altered lab mouse trying to take over the world. Tonight’s plan, Pinky, is to get people intrigued with my philosophies so that they will spend time trying to figure them out. These philosophies have been mathematically engineered to create the maximum amount of intrigue in the human mind. While everybody is trying to understand what I am talking about I will use those critical moments to step into power.

Epistemology. What you believe is the source of knowledge. I assume you mean what is the source of human knowledge. I.e. how is it we come to know what we know or what is the best way to know what we know.

Answer: Objective Truth

Metaphysics. What you believe is the cause of existence. Based on the answer for the Objectivist I assume you mean what is the cause of our own existence. I.e. why do I exist as a sentient being.

Answer: Self-will

Ethic. What you believe is your prime directive, or principle of morality.

Answer: Positive Creation & Avoidance of Destruction

Aesthetic. What you believe is the essence of human perception.

Answer: Truth & Delusion

Politics. What you believe is the best social contract.

Answer: Ethical Democratic Freedom


“Glitch … Window, large icons.” - Bob the Guardian

Jab:

What is your moral principle, and what do you believe is the essence of human perception?

Glitch:

A beautiful philosophy. A man who creates by his own volition, and does not destroy, peels away delusion and uncovers the truth that underlies all things.

Libertarian, I’m a little confused by your questions. Could you give us some examples of the types of answers you’re looking for?

I may change these once I understand what you’re looking for, but here’s my stab at it:

Source of knowledge: Human endeavor (as opposed to divine inspiration or harmonious vibration with the cosmos or something)

Cause of existence: Uknown and possibly unknowable (assuming you mean something like `What caused the Big Bang?’).

Principle of morality: Something akin to the Golden Rule.

Essence of human perception: Huh?

Social contract: representative democracy suits me.

I’m not trying to be flippant about this. I just wanted to answer your intriguing but somewhat broad questions.


Up, up and away!

Clark K

Sure. In addition to the examples already given, here are a few more:


Classic Existentialism

Epistemology: The five senses

Metaphysics: Angst

Ethic: Hedonism

Aesthetic: Self

Politics: Isolation


Classic Authoritarianism

Epistemology: The State

Metaphysics: Nature

Ethic: Obedience

Aesthetic: Order

Politics: Collective cooperation


My Own Philosophy

Epistemology: Experience

Metaphysics: The Holy Spirit

Ethic: Tolerance

Aesthetic: Mathematics

Politics: Volunteerism


Hope those help.

What you believe is the source of knowledge.
I believe that our senses and instruments we create to enhance our perception can tell us valid things about the “real world”. The validity of these perceptions is determined by whether others can perceive such things as well; if I can see a purple buffalo in my room but no one else can, I am inclined to believe that I am hallucinating. If the purple buffalo cannot be detected by any other means, I am certain I am hallucinating.

Subjective perceptions (such as memory, feelings, etc.) can have value, but they are trumped by objective evidence. A strong feeling that X is true has not been effective in my life in predicting whether X is indeed true. Memories can be false or colored by what you wish had happened. However, if I am trying to determine why I am unhappy and I run through in my head various possibilities and a surge of additional unhappiness occurs when I think of a certain thing, I will believe that that thing is the cause of my unhappiness. However, should I find out that this unhappiness occurs whenever I take a certain drug that often has depressive side effects, I will be inclined the think that the true source of my unhappiness is the drug’s side effects, and that my brain manufactured some reason to be unhappy.

All beliefs I hold are provisional (as far as I can tell). I may in fact not exist; I may be a brain in a jar making up the world; A might not equal A. I believe in what I think in necessary to function in this world, but should evidence opposing my beliefs come to the fore, I would hope that I would change my beliefs. Nothing is 100% certain, but is assigned a varying degree of probability based on my experience and reason.

What you believe is the cause of existence.
I think that reality is real. This particular universe may have always existed (no time existing before it), or it may be going though a boom-and-bust cycle of big bang/big crunch. There may be other universes. Things that we can never perceive objectively may in fact exist, but it is unwise to speculate too much about the reality of things that cannot be perceived when one has not ruled out an explanation that *can be proved.

What you believe is your prime directive, or principle of morality.
I would go with an intelligent, empathic, knowledgeable application of the golden rule or categorical imperative. I like the categorical imperative because it gives you a directive in things that may not affect other people (i.e., should I keep myself in good health?), and also it has more syllables and sounds more impressive. (However, since it is less well known, you sometimes get people who say things like “Well, say I want to be a painter; that can’t be moral since if everybody was a painter we’d all starve. ::rolling eyes:: Why people feel the need to make themselves artificially stupid when analyzing moral imperatives is beyond me.) I believe a vital part of morality is learning and understanding; it is immoral to not find out as much as you can about a situation before making a judgment. Ignorance is a very poor excuse for wrong behavior. “Well, I thought they were possessed, so it was all right for me to kill them.” No—you are morally obligated to do your best to determine if they are actually a danger (and to read up on epilepsy, in this case).

What you believe is the essence of human perception.
Since this was listed as “aesthetic” before in your list, I’m going to assume that’s what you wish to know about. You can clarify what you are asking for if my assumption was wrong. I believe that our perception of beauty/ugliness is determined by genetics, culture, upbringing, psychology and free will. I think the great majority of us are hardwired to see certain things as beautiful: babies, healthy members of the sex you are attracted to, nice days, lush trees. Yes, those darn genes again. The babies and healthy people aesthetic is pretty self-evident to help our survival; healthy foliage implies the presence of food; good weather is comfortable. I think man finds recognizing patterns to be useful, and so thinks ordered, harmonious things are aesthetically pleasing. Culture can change or enhance the hardwired perceptions; in the 19th century the most attractive women were the ones who looked like they were about to keel over from pneumonia. That’s hardly a good trait for the genes to encourage! But at that time the ultimate woman was one who was completely dependent on her man; it also showed that the man has the resources to support a completely useless person (also a possible explanation for foot-binding in China). Now our culture endorses a thin body and large breasts, but once a more zaftig look was “in”. A more voluptuous look was popular when only the rich could afford that much food; now mostly only the rich have the free time and money to get a personal trainer and breast implants. Upbringing also helps determine what one finds pleasing: one reason why I like poetry is because my mother was an English (and Psych) teacher, so I have been exposed to and encouraged to like poetry. As to which particular poems I like, I think I can find psychological reasons why for most of them; I like ones that praise courage, free-thinking, etc., because those are things I also find valuable. “Free will” is my last ingredient for our aesthetic perception. About a year ago, I decided I was going to learn more about modern poetry, and therefore like it, since I always find things more interesting the more I know about them. So I chose to use my knowledge of myself to learn to like something I felt no great preference for before.

I told you I got wordy on weekends. So what philosophies do I endorse, Lib?

Gaudere:

A very nice, eclectic philosophy.

Your views on epistemology and metaphysics are in line with Carneades and the doctrines of the New Academy. New Academy philosophers included Carneades, Diogenes the Stoic, and Critolaus the Peripatetic, who together were the triune Athenian ambassador to Rome in 155 BC. The New Academy taught that the senses, the understanding, and the imagination often deceive us, and therefore cannot be infallible judges of truth; we do, however, infer appearances of truth or probabilities from the impression which we perceive to be produced upon the mind by means of the senses. Carneades in particular taught two main things: (1) that nothing can be proved, because our conclusions follow from premises that follow from axioms that are not proven; and (2) it is impossible to know with an absolute certainty whether our ideas conform with objective reality, because we only get a “copy” of it (through our senses).

Your ethic seems influenced by an odd mixture of Kant and Confucius. I think your version of the categorical imperative is derived more from The Critique of Practical Reason than from The Metaphysics of Morals. I say that only because it recapitulates Kant’s Formula of the End Itself: “Act in such a way that you always treat humanity, whether in your own person or in the person of any other, never simply as a means, but always at the same time as an end.” But your categoricalism is tempered by a Confucian empathy.

Your aesthetic looks like a blend of functionalism and type identity, the “qualia” concept of the former, and the disjunctive physical states of the latter. Thus, what is perceived is colored by various disjuntions (e.g., where you’re from, who raised you, what you’ve been exposed to), yet is ultimately validated subjectively by your own standards that you develop over time.

So…

The Gauderian Philosophy

Epistemology: Experimental probabilism

Metaphysics: Perceptive reality

Ethic: Comprehensive empathy

Aesthetic: Harmony


Whaddaya think?

I like “experimental probablism”; that sounds like a pretty good description. I am a little concerned that the metaphysics don’t seem to allow for unperceivable reality, but combined with my epistemology that is perhaps implied. “Comprehensive empathy”…comprehensive how? Empathy is very important, but so is intelligent and knowledgeable application. But perhaps I am making the same mistake I complained about and am making myself “artifically stupid”. I don’t think I’ve ever read much Confucius, although I did read Kant; I just didn’t agree with his ultimate conclusions. I’ll read up on the philosophers you mentioned, although I warn you I try to find reasons to disagree with philosophies, even the ones I like; I think I have a mortal fear of being pigeonholed or easily categorized. Functionalism sounds interesting too; perhaps that is a good description of my attempts to find reasons why we feel and think and do the things we do. Thanks!

You’re welcome. I’m very pleased that you’re pleased. I enjoyed the exercise.

Don’t worry about being pigeonholed by modelling your philsophy. For many people, philsophies change over time. I know mine did. And when they change, the model simply changes with them. In other words, the philosophy drives the model, not the other way around.

The reason I used “perceptive reality” is because it is a notion that allows for percepts of concepts. It seems to express the right balance, according to what you told me, because it reserves entities that might not be perceived to be conceivable, so that they can be brought into our perception by some change in our perception, such as the invention of a new instrument or the acquisition of new knowledge or new understanding.

As for the “comprehensive empathy”, I meant empathy that is based on comprehension or understanding. I almost started to write it as “empathic comprehension”.

Confucius was the first (so far as is known) philosopher to espouse the Golden Rule. I notice there’s a new thread about a fallacy in it, and I’ll check it out. The only problem I’ve ever found with it is that it cannot apply for psychopaths or sociopaths, at least not without losing its standing as a categorical imperative.