The Baseball Hall of Fame Class of 2010 thread

The Game Room
301

There’s a reason why third basemen are under represented in the HOF: compared with other positions, there aren’t that many HOF-worthy third basemen. If you look at the history of many baseball franchises, you’ll find that third base is often a problem position to fill. For example, before David Wright, the New York Mets went through seemingly dozens of them in their relatively short existence.

Of course, as Bill James pointed out, a lot of that may be due to the fact that there really isn’t a general consensus about what makes one third baseman greater than another. When evaluating their worth, nobody is sure how much weight to give offense or defense.

302

Not that he could have made it to 3000 hits, but if Will Clark hadn’t decided to retire while he was still productive rather than bouncing around for five or six years during his decline phase, he might have racked up enough counting stats (2500+ hits, 350+ home runs) to garner him a bit more respect in HOF voting, instead of dropping off the ballot after his first year of eligibility.

Seriously, Clark has at least a colorable HOF case. He had his best seasons during the low-offense years of the early 90s, played stellar defense for fifteen years, and retired after a 2000 season in which he put up a .319/.418/.536 line in 427 at-bats. For his career, Clark batted .303/.384/.497 with a 137 OPS+. Obviously that would have come down a little if he had played long enough to have the expected decline, but he deserved much better than 4.4% of the HOF vote his first time on the ballot.

Ditto Lou Whitaker, who I mentioned earlier. 18 seasons of good offense from a demanding defensive position, and he blossomed at the plate late in his career. His OPS+ by season for his first ten years (selective endpoints alert) was 101, 108, 69, 103, 112, 133, 112, 123, 110, 106. For his last eight years, it was 126, 133, 107, 141, 136, 133, 121, and 129. His final two seasons were the strike-shortened years of 1994 and 1995, in which he put up a .301/.377/.491 line in 322 at-bats and then a .293/.372/.518 line in 249 at-bats. I don’t know why he chose to retire then, and who knows how much he had left in his tank, but his career compares favorably to Ryne Sandberg’s, and he certainly didn’t deserve to get 2.9% in his first year of HOF eligibility and then fall off the ballot.

I’m not saying that either Clark or Whitaker were slam-dunk HOFers, but I refuse to believe that their careers were given due consideration by the voters.

And while I’m talking about players who unjustly dropped off the HOF ballot after one year, I might as well mention Bobby Grich (great offense for a second baseman and even better defense, but only 2.6% of the vote) and Ted Simmons (superb hitter for someone who spent an overwhelming percentage of his career behind the plate; 3.7% of the HOF vote).

303

Yep-third basemen are caught between standards, basically, having to hit like players at more purely offensive positions, but still field adequately (lately CFers are being held to this unrealistic standard too-watch how quickly Jim Edmonds and Bernie Williams sink like stones when they become eligible). Ventura has an argument-it may not be an argument that you/he/anybody might agree with, but he was better than the CW says he was. 7 votes out of 500+ for such a player (clearly the best of the also-rans this year) is hardly grounds to cavil and moan about how borken the elective process is (and yes, in some ways it definitely could stand improvement-tighten the voting pools, open it to retired players, broadcasters, and former executives/managers as well, 100 voters from each of those 4 groups).

Now, as to the more general debate: is the 10th-best 3B as valuable as the 10th-best 1B? Should they be considered as such inherently, by definition? Someone like Ventura is a pretty valuable commodity-in 1999, arguably Ventura’s best year, average AL 3B hit only a smidgen better than SS’s (9 points of OPS better, all of it in slugging), and were actually outhit by 2B. Yet his contemporary Alomar, a 2B, is seen as a slam-dunk and Ventura an also-ran, despite virtually identical OPS(+) numbers.

Again I’m mainly playing Devil’s Advocate here; Alomar was definitely better (2,000 more PAs for starters), and Ventura I’d peg about 4th or 5th in line among eligible 3B, behind oh say Santo, Darrell Evans, Graig Nettles, and Ken Boyer. Point is it’s a pretty hard position to fill-look at who the Red Sox went and got (Beltre)-who else was out there to be had, tho? Maybe these guys do deserve to be graded on a curve a bit.

304

One reason why there’s such a high bar for comparing center fielders is because it was the position played by people like Willie Mays, Ty Cobb, Mickey Mantle, and Joe DiMaggio–complete ballplayers who each have supportable claims of being the greatest of all time. In that regard, third basemen have it relatively easy.

As for this year’s HOF vote, I thought the choice of Andre Dawson was surprising. I fully expected Alomar and Blyleven would go in before him. Among second basemen, Alomar ranks near the top. The only reasons he didn’t get selected his first time on the ballot likely had to do with the spitting incident and his lackluster performance with the Mets when his productivity suddenly fizzled out.

305

Huh? Really? I mean - yeah, they both are better than Dawson, but the outcome of the voting was hardly a surprise.

2009
Dawson 67%
Blyleven 62.7%

2008
Dawson 65.9%
Blyleven 61.9%

2007
Dawson 56.7%
Blyleven 47.7%

2006
Dawson 61%
Blyleven 53.3%

2005
Dawson 52.3%
Blyleven 40.8%

306

He’s going in as an Expo, and he’s not happy about it. I wonder if there will be any others. Raines and Vlad Guerrero are the only potentials that come to mind.

307

[QUOTEHe’s going in as an Expo, and he’s not happy about it.[/QUOTE]

Out of curiosity, is there any way he can force the issue? Can he pull shtick like “I go in as a Cub or I may not show up?”

308

The Hall of Fame could show Dawson dressed in a clown suit if they wanted to.

Can you imagine what people would say about Dawson if he pulled a stunt like this? He’d be called an ungrateful crybaby and worse.

309

Poor Expos fans. Finally get a player in the hall and he doesn’t want to wear your colors.

310

He could do that if he wanted to. The problem is it would probably not change anything and he’d look like a jerk. He says he asked to be inducted as a Cub and says he may wear a Cubs cap during his speech. I wouldn’t be surprised if he backs down from that to avoid controversy, but I don’t know much about him as a person.

I’m remembering now that Gary Carter didn’t want to go in to the hall as an Expo either. So there will be two guys with Expo caps on their plaques and neither of them supported it. That sucks.

311

Larry Walker. He won’t get in, but he’ll get some votes.

312

Nobody “saved” baseball, but guys like McGwire, Bonds and Sosa (i.e., CHEATERS) ruined it for me and it will NEVER be the same!

So, put them in the Hall of Fame? Are you kidding me!

313

Uh - a little advice? First, responding to a post on page 1 of a 7 page thread without reading through to see if that point had been argued isn’t a great idea (especially when it’s gonzomax). Second - that post is almost a year old as well.