Sportsmanship. Same issue with McGwire. Yes, it matters, and according to the Hall rules it *should *matter.
Um, no, that’s backward. If he could play defense adequately he wouldn’t be a DH. What’s wrong with saying that a guy who only plays half the game has to be twice as good?
Granted, it wasn’t Edgar’s fault he got hurt and couldn’t play 3B anymore, but so? Lots of guys have their careers limited or ended by injury. We don’t put them in the Hall based on what they might have done had reality been different.
Robby and Mac eventually belong, yes, after they’ve done their penance, but not on the first ballot. Morris had his Big Moments and was dominant enough for long enough and should be in. Blyleven, for all the stats-massaging that’s been done on his behalf, just was not, and belongs in the huge mass of Very, Very Good but Not Quite Good Enough guys just outside the door.
Deny the Hall to a 300 game winner? Again, your conception of the makeup of the HoF is different than reality; there’s a number of pitchers who are worse than Sutton-Early Wynn, another 300 game winner, has a very comparable ERA-do you want to toss him out too? How about Red Ruffing-bum didn’t even win 300. Byleven’s ERA+ is 10 points higher than all of these guys-his induction wouldn’t lower the standards of the Hall in the least. Fergie Jenkins had no trouble getting in, and is very comparable. Note I am not even mentioning the likes of Rube Marquard or Waite Hoyt.
Possibly the most disappointing Met ever, but he was a hall of famer before he ever put on the uniform. One of the top 6 or 7 2nd basemen ever, there was nothing he didn’t do well. Spitting on an ump was a terrible act, but are we really going to throw out a player’s career on one lone action that didn’t nor couldn’t cause injury. Many hall of famers have done worse.
Bert Blyleven
Barry Larkin
Yeah, he isn’t the offensive force Arod or Jeter, but he wasn’t playing in the same era for the most part. In his time he was a fantastic hitter for a shortstop and a very good defensively player as well. He probably didn’t deserve the MVP, but he should be enshrined.
Mark McGwire
Yeah, he probably broke rules that no one thought were worth enforcing. I can’t say that I blame him. As a hitter, he is an easy choice.
Tim Raines
Getting on base is really important. He was one of the very best at it. A phenomenal base runner as well. Just because he wasn’t as good as Rickey doesn’t mean he isn’t worthy of the hall.
On the bubble
Edgar Martinez**
His career was relatively short and he had little to no defense value. His offense might have been good enough to trump that though.
Fred McGriff
Again, we need to not forget the era. Much of his career was before the offensive explosion of the mid 90’s.
Alan Trammell
At the very least should be getting a lot more consideration.
He wasn’t as good as Rickey, Vince, Maury, Brock, or Cobb. I dunno why you guys think his OBP is such a big deal (new school SABR?) but I don’t see Raines on either the season’s highest OBP leaders or career leaders in OBP, and he led the league in OBP once.
Afaik, Raines is only known for setting the rookie steal record, then leading the league in steals for 5 years. The rookie record was then smashed (over 10%) by Vince Coleman, who then went on to lead the league in steals for 6 years.
And then, if you want to look at OBP, Barry Bonds’ stupid OBP (.515-.609) for 2001, 2002, 2003 and 2004 should set the high water mark, or Ted Williams’ career mark of .4817.
Imho, the HOF should not be for being good, but for being great. They shouldn’t include the 75thth best centerfielder in history, for example, or the 3rd best stolen base champion in a particular decade.
Regarding McGuire, he rises above the stats for what he’s done for the game. After strike seasons, he helped bring the crowds back to the ballparks with his 2 WS runs with Canseco with the A’s (and then being on the opposite end of the Gibson homer,) and then his historic HR duel with Sosa. While some people will point to, in retrospect, Cal Ripken’s record as being the one that saved baseball, McGuire/Sosa helped, a lot.
I don’t know anyone who thinks Ripken saved baseball. McGwire and Sosa did. Ripken was going to break the record but it would not be an event. Just another day at the office.
Ripken’s record was a big deal. You can argue all you want over who “saved” baseball after the strike, but calling it just another day at the office is ridiculous.
It’s a myth that the 1998 home run race saved baseball. It did not do anything for attendance or TV ratings. It got a lot of attention but didn’t save the sport.
I’d vote yes for Alomar, Trammell, Larkin, and probably Raines and Martinez.
The attention is what saved the sport. Attendance is not the only litmus for the game. The homerun race was on TV and every home run was cut away to by stations. People who had little interest in the sport were seeing it every where. it is the kind of publicity that can not be bought for any amount of money. It was discussed at every water cooler. The anger that was aimed at the sport had been deflected.
On your list above: take out the 500 doubles, which is pretty meaningless. How big is your group now? How many non-HOFs does it include. That should tell you something. (I’m not anti-Edgar, but the case you’re making for him is textbook we-can-make-a-group reasoning. I see this all the time, and it gets old.)
I’d vote for two guys.
Robbie Alomar was the greatest all-around second baseman I ever saw. Glove work, hitting for power, getting on base, baserunning, the guy could do it all. (His throwing game was overrated, but that’s almost a quibble when you look at the amazing stops he would make.)
Unlike Edgar, I don’t need to work to make a group for Bert Blyleven. Who’s the only eligible player in the top ten for lifetime strikeouts not in the HOF? That’s Bert. (He’s actually top 5; you have to get down to #18, Mickey Lolich, to find a pitcher not inducted.) Who’s the only eligible player in the top ten for lifetime shutouts not in the HOF? That’s Bert. Hell, who’s the only eligible player in the top TWENTY for lifetime shutouts not in the HOF? That’s Bert. Not inducting a guy who’s outperformed MOST of the HOF in the metrics we usually use to judge this sort of thing is, well, wierd.
I’m not going to make a case against Raines, Larkin, Martinez, or any of the rest, but Robbie and Bert should be in the HOF, and it shouldn’t be close.
Compared to Coleman, Brock and Wills, Raines got on base more often, hit for more power and for a higher average. He had more career stolen bases than Wills or Coleman, and a higher stolen base percentage than any of the three. He scored more runs than Wills or Coleman, and more runs per game than any of them. Raines has the highest career OPS+ of the group (Wills and Coleman were below average in this measure). Raines has the highest career offensive winning percentage of the group (his figure of .665 is outstanding, and Wills and Coleman are again below average).
Raines wasn’t as good a player as Henderson or Cobb, but he was better than Brock, Wills and Coleman in most ways that matter. Raines was an excellent hitter and a very good base stealer who, although he never held an important stolen base record like Wills and Brock did, also didn’t get thrown out stealing as often as Wills and Brock. Coleman was a one-dimensional player - all he did really well was steal bases.
You’re going to have a very hard time convincing anyone (other than gonzomax) that baseball needed saving. Everyone points to McGwire/Sosa - but there wasn’t any sort of spike or increase in ratings at that point. Nor were there during Ripken’s run. Baseball was just fine - they just needed to get out of their own way after '94.
Nonsense. If the attention doesn’t translate to ticket and merchandise sales and cable revenue, how is the sport saved? What difference does it make? The bottom line is that fans got over the strike after a couple of years. The steroid scandal didn’t do much to the game either. At the end of the day there’s only one MLB and you either follow it or you don’t. There’s not much the sport can do to gain or lose fans other than being what it is.
Wills won the MVP with an ops of 720? Wow that was some terrible voting, though 100+ steals with only 13 caught is pretty amazing. At any rate, we are not subject to best baseball wisdom of 40 years ago. We can do better now.