I don’t love Maddux but he clearly qualifies for the hall by nearly any standard. I think Rivera is a no brainer 5 years after he retires. I’ll keep Bonds, Rose and Clemens out for various offenses against baseball. Griffey goes in and A-Rod will someday. Pudge and Piazza still both seem like even elevated Hall of Fame material. I give points for position and I give the most to Catchers.
Jeter* does not make this tougher hall though I think he is a shoe-in for the actual hall. Pedro does not make this tougher Hall. Randy Johnson is border line. I think I would keep him out. Obviously Rice would not make it and Rickey still would. Ripken might well get tossed, as would loads of others.
**RickJay **you need to finish your experimental HOF’er threads. Any chance of you picking them back up?
Unless he tops 4000 hits, then he might go in but this is not all to likely.
Well, in order of assertion, yes he is, yes they do, yes he is, roughly, and because.
Unless you’re talking about a Hall of Fame with, like, twenty pitchers in it, there’s really no argument to exclude Pedro or Randy Johnson.
Take into account park and league factors and Pedro is pretty much Koufak.
Okay. Any hall that would exclude the likes of Pedro/Jeter still seems silly to me too. Though I would certainly put in Johnson/Pedro before Rivera. (I have no problem with Rivera making the actual hall)
Just because this is my favorite thing to bring up, now that Mariano Rivera is over 1,000 career IP, not only is he the greatest pitcher of all-time as measured by qualified ERA+, but he’s the greatest by 30% over the next best. Career ERA 2.29 while the league average was 4.56.
Not that adjusted ERA tells the whole story, but holy shit he’s had an incredible career.
Yes, Mo kind of stands out as the best relief pitcher of all time. That is the only reason I would put him in ahead of the likes of Pedro and Johnson who are great but not the greatest at what the do.
Obviously I as Yankee fan look forward to Jeter making the Hall. But he is would not make this much tougher cut that I was playing around with. He is not a top 10 shortstop.
That’s pretty impressive. Is there any measurement out there that takes into account the situation a reliever is put in during, or something that adjusts for the runs he cost the guy before him? I’m not doubting he’s still going to come out smelling like roses, but I wonder how much (if at all) it helps his numbers being a reliever.
Yeah, there are a few. Actually, a bunch of them. I don’t have career but I can look at this past year.
The simplest ones are just the numbers revolving around inherited runners. There’s one called “Inherited Runs Prevented,” which is a counting stat that tells how many inherited runs you prevented vs. the league average. Rivera was at .8 prevented; most Yankee relievers were in the negative twos and threes. By comparison, Carlos Marmol led baseball at 7 prevented, 3.2 put you at 10th in baseball, and 2.0 put you in the top 30. Among the top ten closers in the league in terms of saves, only Rivera, Papelbon, Brian Wilson, and Kerry Wood were positive in terms of runs prevented (Cordero, Valverde and K-Rod were the worst at around -2.5 to -4).
Then there’s “Fair Runs Allowed,” which is like ERA except it includes unearned, inherited, and “bequeathed” runners in the average. Rivera’s Fair RA was 1.35; Soria at 1.98 was the only closer joining him under 2.00 (and really the only one close).
Oh, and the easy one - Rivera’s inherited runners and the number scored for his career:
The trouble makers were not exposed like nowadays. But Ted Williams pissed off a lot of writers. When I went to games where Ted Williams was playing I knew the greatness was there. The fans could feel it. Everybody knew and could feel it was different. Arod gets some of those feelings going. Bonds does too. I never saw Henderson and thought ,here is greatness. here is something special.
That was a stupid remark. He once asked for a raise. It shows ignorance of the circumstances and is childish. Don’t lower yourself to such discourse.
I picture a huge podium in the sky with Ruth,Cobb ,Cy Young and others standing around. Ozzie Smith ,Phil Rizutto and Henderson walk up and they say, “who are you and what are you doing here. Go away.”
In truth I think Henderson has the numbers and belongs. I just see it as more elevated than most of you do. Crap they induct owners and sport writers. I still fight for it to be special.
You know what? I get what you’re saying. And I can imagine them dismissing Ozzie and Rizzuto. But Henderson? I think they’d say “let that bastard in, and don’t let him anywhere near first base.”
I don’t usually try to change people’s minds on things like this, but I’m going to try with Rickey. And because I know how you feel about statistics, I’m going to use a completely subjective argument.
Did you ever see Rickey play? In person? Bottom of the ninth, Yankees down by one, one out? Here’s how it would go: Rickey comes to the plate. Crowd starts screaming. Pitcher’s psyched out before the at bat even begins. First pitch: ball one. The Stadium crowd, who knew how this at bat would end the minute the last guy grounded out, erupts. Second pitch: ball two. Delirium. Pitcher sneaks across a pair of strikes. Then ball three. Then, disdainfully, Rickey fouls off a few. Maybe more than a few. He knows where this is going, and the pitcher knows, and the fans know, but Rickey figures he’ll make the guy sweat a bit. Finally, ball four, the humble walk, Rickey trots to first. You turn to call the hot dog guy, and when you look back, Rickey’s stolen second. You turn to pay the hot dog guy, and when you turn back, he’s on third. Lazy fly ball to left and here comes Rickey, tie game.
He was incredible. With him batting leadoff you were off-balance from the start; he’d pop one of those leadoff home runs (did you know he hit almost 300?). He’d draw a walk, which was usually equivalent to a double. He’d confuse pitchers, drive them crazy, get them so focused on throwing over to first, not letting Rickey steal second, that they’d forget all about Canseco or McGwire or Mattingly. Even at age 42, banished to a bad Padres team and hitting .220, he was an on-base machine.
Nobody, nobody, not Ty Cobb, not Babe Ruth, not anyone, ever crossed home plate as many times as he did.
Rickey Henderson is part of the pantheon. However exacting you want the standards to be, however exclusive you want the Hall to be, Henderson gets to be a part of it.
Reads above post. He has the numbers. Yes ,I saw him play several times. I was surely unhappy if he got on base. He could throw a pitcher off his game .
Rose is a special case. Not only did he gamble on games but then lied about it. Gambling scandals can destroy the game. So. I see the problem. He and Aaron were not the hitters Ruth and Cobb were. They compensated by getting millions of at bats. But you can not ignore the accumulated numbers.
McGwire could excite an audience kind of like Bonds. Why do so many great ball players have to be pricks? I was a Denny McClain fan so I know how bad it can get.