Elbows I respectfully suggest that you read a good recent history of the PRC. It’s certainly true that the PRC at one time was willing to engage in disastrous economic policies for ideological reasons - witness the Cultural Revolution and the Great Leap Forward. However, China is no longer willing to do so, precisely because these were disasters. Since at least the 1980s, the Chinese Communist Party has embraced economic pragmatism, substantially reducing economic controls in much of the country. This is how the Party hopes to prevent a repeat of the mass protests that culminated in Tiannamen Square. (Though I note that protests have continued in large cities in the western part of the country as recently as last year.) The Communist Party absolutely does worry about the people rising up in the street - if the masses got unhappy enough, they’d need to either surrender power or use really brutal tactics to suppress the protests. Neither is an attractive option - I’ve no love for the Chinese Communist Party, but it takes a rare strain of psychopathy to actually enjoy the prospect of running protestors over with tanks again.
The PRC places great value on economic prosperity as the foundation of the government’s legitimacy. It would not lightly cast that aside.
I highly suggest you do a little reading of the Chinese people. Ignore their history at your peril. It’s easy to assume every society is like ours driven by profit alone. The Chinese have demonstrated repeatedly that politics is more important than profit, prosperity or the well being of their own people. Repeatedly. Ignore at your peril.
“It would not lightly cast that aside.” Is naive in the extreme, when talking about Chinese politics. A change of mood at the top and all bets are off. The Chinese populace knows this is the case, how is you don’t?
Elbows, with all due respect, you keep repeating these meme’s in multiple threads and it’s getting pretty old.
The China of today bears little resemblence to the sterotypes you’re throwing you. I mean, you do realize that since 1989, the economy has doubled nearly 3 times, state owned enterprises make up less than 20% of the economy and is declining every year, communes are long gone, China is in the top 3 market for just about every global luxury brand made, etc.
As pointed out in this thread and I’ve pointed out to you in others: China owns about 6% of the US public debt and almost the exact same amount as Japan or about USD1 trillion. Compared to overall debt and the size of the US economy, it is miniscule. Given the current economic environment (global demand for safe assets), China could probably sell off the debt in a structured fashion and not significantly affect rates. The US could always default on the debt anyway. Secondly, the entire world would stand up and applaud if china unpegs the Yuan or RMB from the USD. China has a relatively small domestic market and needs to be able to export to the US to support it’s economy and the government’s mandate to rule.
I don’t think you understand that the government’s “contract with China” is “you don’t overtly question our right to rule, and we will let you get rich.”
Of course you’re entitled to believe as you wish. I don’t believe for a moment that “Don’t overtly question our right to rule” means in your interpretation. And I think it’s naive of you to believe so.
Everyone wants to believe that photograph of the man before the tank in the square. But the hard truth is, almost to a man, all who participated paid with their lives. A fact that a photo, powerful image though it may be, seems to totally obscure for some people.
That the top guys are getting a little more spin savy doesn’t change their willingness to act with an iron fist should they feel the need, in my opinion.
This idea that the Chinese leaders are insane and want to see the world economy collapse, is kind of odd. Why would China wish us ill if we do not wish China ill? There just doesn’t seem to be any good motivation when there are so many places where China can get what it needs by working WITH the US, rather than against it, kind of like how they are using American nation-building in Afghanistan to setup organizations with mineral rights that will develop raw materials for Chinese consumption.
Everyone wants to believe that photograph of the man before the tank in the square. But the hard truth is, almost to a man, all who participated paid with their lives. A fact that a photo, powerful image though it may be, seems to totally obscure for some people. QUOTE]
It appears that your knowledge of China is gleamed from sound bites and talking heads in the Western media. To have a much better understanding for what happened or the context for Tiananmen. I would highly suggest that you watch the Temple of Heavenly Peace by Hinton. It covers the history, provides context and documents what happened in Beijing. the main shortcoming IMHO is that it did not document what happened in the rest of China.
Of course this is an anynomous message boards but would you care to share your bona fides on China? For example, I have degrees in Mandarin Chinese and Asian studies, have lived in China, taiwan and Hong Kong for 20+ years, my wife is a Chinese national, my kids were born and raised in Shanghai, I wrote a guidebook to SW China researched in 1985 and 1986, etc. As a result, I find your views very disconnected from the reality*** I ***have and currently experience here in China.
I bow to your superior knowledge but am still entitled to my opinion. I fail to see how where your children were raised, a language degree, or writing a guide book makes your opinion any better than mine, but hey, what do I know?
I have seen the documentary you cited, traveled extensively in Asia, have many Chinese friends and yet wouldn’t feel the need to cite any of that to defend my opinion.
Maybe ask the Tibetan’s about the iron fist, good faith, etc. After all, surely they’d rather work with them, rather than against them. As long as the Tibetan’s don’t wish them any ill, should be okay, right?
I stand my position that you ignore China’s history of choosing political might, regardless of lives lost, profit unrealized, hardship to it’s own people, at your peril. I live by the adage when people show you who they really are, it’s your job to see.
Cross cultural lesson. Generally speaking, the Chinese disagree and would say that people’s opinions are not created equal. Throughout Chinese history, the needs of the individual are considered to be subservient to that of society as a whole (or the State). This is a cornerstone of Confucianism. Take a really simple example. If you’ve ever visited China, you would know that traffic laws are more of a suggestion than a law as all drivers could care less if they make traffic slower for everyone as long as they can get microscopically ahead, However, put a camera on the road or a traffic cop in the intersection, and suddenly it all works. Take that traffic cop away, and you’ll have gridlock and anarchy.
Regarding this topic, there is a seperate GD going on right now on China Google and Sovereignity. Essentially what I said there can be written here: China in public media announcements always plays to the domestic croiwd. China always comes out with the stance that a nations’ internal affairs are the concern of that nation only. It should absolutely surprise no one that an American ‘demand’ for a more open internet in China is met with a public response for domestic consumption of ‘US imperialistic posturing’ or some variant thereof. This has not changed for decades and frankly not quite sure why something that is a non- event in China now would warrant a sea change in the public response?
That’s a pretty damned dishonest pie chart, implying that China owns about 20% of US treasuries. Americans themselves own their fair share of government treasuries, but the pie chart only shows “foreign” treasury holders. China only owns about 6% of American treasuries.
“the Chinese disagree and would say that people’s opinions are not created equal.”
Thanks for the condescension/cultural lesson.
And here I thought we were in a free country where our opinions where both valid. But clearly your superior knowledge and experience entirely invalidates my view.
Your opinion is superior to mine? How very Chinese of you!
I don’t know beans from China, but wanted to briefly address the concept of “Opinions”.
I am a University science Professor. Many of my students have “opinions” on the subject matter (evolution, vaccinations etc…). Often, these opinions are asinine.
They state (often and loudly) that I am oppressing them when I shoot their opinions down in class.
Are they entitled to have an opinion? Yes, of course they are. Is ANYONE obligated to take their opinions seriously? NO.
It always amazes me how a student who forms an opinion on a topic based on 15 minutes reading the Enquirer feels that this is equivalent to my 15 years of in-depth experience researching a topic.
elbows, you are the student in this thread. If you are really interested in fighting ignorance, let go of your “opinion” and pay attention to the people who actually know what they are talking about. Opinions should NEVER trump facts.
Reminder the divine wisdom - 'Opinions Are Like Assh*les - Everyone Has One And Many Of Them Stink".
Fact: Chinese history demonstrates that they are more than willing to choose political might even if it sends their own people into poverty and their country into chaos.
Fact: They are still using their Iron Fist to suppress the Tibetans - an entire culture decimated while the whole world watched.
Fact: Just because I don’t have children raised in Shanghai or a professorship does not invalidate my opinion that they wouldn’t hesitate to use their Iron Fist again, forgoing profit, stability and prosperity for their people to exercise their political might.
Your condescension doesn’t negate those facts.
People don’t see it your way so you accuse them of getting their information from the Enquirer or newsbites, when no such thing is in evidence. That’s about condescension not fighting ignorance.
This is actually the point here, China Guy. It’s odd how, in America, where everyone is supposedly out for themselves, that the traffic laws actually are followed even in circumstances where there is no chance for a cop.
Where nobody’s looking, in China, things rage freely. There might be a greater lesson in this sort of cultural behavior. Where the state is not, then no-one is in charge? Which could lead to problems down the line that are not currently detectable.
Do you think the Chinese do not understand this? Of course they do, the Chinese are merely fighting for what they want, same way the US and other countries do.