Can you provide recent (last 20 years) examples in which they made choices as you describe? Like any govt they are in it to survive and will do what is necessary, but what you describe sounds like it would weaken rather than strengthen their position.
Are you unaware that they suppressed the Tibetan’s, expressing their political will with tanks, prior to the Olympics? There isn’t even a count of the number of people they ‘disappeared’. Doesn’t seem like much has changed to me.
That they have used tanks to suppress Tibetan’s is not opinion, it is a fact.
And it is a fact that where your children were raised or your professorship have no bearing on this discussion. Not an opinion, a fact. Nor does accusing people of being ignorant or reading the Enquirer have any bearing, it’s just an attempt to undermine an opposing argument you disagree with.
Just because their great missteps didn’t happen in the last 20 yrs doesn’t mean they wouldn’t resort to it again, if they felt threatened.
Not sure if you are responding to me or ChinaGuy, but my question was really related to policies that would hurt their people (my interpretation of “their people” is “China as a whole”) economically. I’m aware of Tibet, but I’m not aware of how that caused a drop in GDP or living standard of the majority of Chinese.
Be fair. All people have an equal right to have opinions, and proclaim them. But some peoples’ opinions are superior to others’, and you know it.
Freedom, as George Orwell said, “is the freedom to say that two and two make four; once that is granted, all else follows.” He should have added, “including the freedom to say that two and two make five.”
Suggest that you learn something about Modern Tibetan History. The oppression of Tibet did not start pre-Olympics and if you really cared about their cause, you wouldn’t reduce it to such an ignorant sound byte. You might want to check out what the Dalai Lama had to say on the subject.
Here is the link to the University of Oregon’s E-Asiafree digital library. And a link to the free version of Tibet Past and Present, by Sir Charles Bell, who was a very well respected Tibetologist, spent significant time in Lhasa after the British (Younghusband) invasion of Tibet, and knew the 13th Dalai Lama quite well.
There are also plenty of well researched books on modern Tibet out there.
Unless I am mistaken, the Chinese often claim the Tibetan’s are ‘their own people’. This is the whole crux of the dispute.
How you cannot see that their willingness to brutally suppress the Tibetan’s, (their own people, by their own claim), demonstrates completely my point. That they are more than capable of harshly reacting, in similar fashion, to any other of ‘their own peoples’ as they see fit. Like with tanks, disappearings, and brutal repression, caring not a whit for the suffering of ‘their own people’.
I think it’s a great disservice to the discourse to choose to ignore what is plain for anyone to see.
No one really knows what goes on inside Tibet, because the Chinese leadership would prefer to not be scrutinized for their actions. That they have learned spin doesn’t change what they are capable of, in my opinion.
(Thanks for the recommendation, but I have read Bell. I have read extensively on Tibet, and visited many Tibetan communities both here, and in Asia. In fact I’ll bet I own many more books on the topic than either of you. I know I have more than my local library and I live in a university town.) However I would never use these facts to try and back up my claims, but you seem to value such things so highly I thought I should put your minds at rest in this regard. Lest you think anyone opposing your opinion is all Enquirer and sound bytes.
Based on my experience with Chinese culture I’d say that the reason is that the appearance of doing things right, honorably or what not is what really counts. I suppose it comes from (or perhaps is the reason for?) the whole “Saving face” issue, very generically speaking, they’d be severely upset about being exposed doing something wrong, not for the deed itself but by being called on it.
This is one aspect of the face thing but just one aspect. I think many foreigners make the mistake of thinking that this is the only aspect.
It’s very common to use the phrase 没有办法/meiyoubanfa/not my fault. But that only goes so far and depends on context.
Chinese routinely get called on the carpet and publicly bitchslapped. They don’t necessarily “lose face” because of it. Depends on who is doing the bitchslapping, how it’s being done, and for what reason. The magnitude of the screw up and whether other people are screwing up are very important as to whether it is a face thing or a ginormous unforgiveable screwed the pooch fuck up.
This is the Great Debates forum. On the SDMB, and especially in Great Debates, we actually do try to use proveable facts to back up assertations and opinions. Also we try to use facts (with cites even) as debating points. Maybe you mistook this for IMHO or MPSIMS although most posters after a decade and a few thousands posts generally understand the difference between forums.
You’re more than welcome to provide some facts for debate on this thread on China. Personally, I’d like to hear any of your Tibetan book recommendations since I am reasonably well read and well travelled on the subject.
I intended that you not take my “having books, a professorship, written a guide book, where my children were raised” as, in any way buttressing my view.
“Maybe you mistook this for IMHO or MPSIMS although most posters after a decade and a few thousands posts generally understand the difference between forums.” More condescension? Really, is that necessary?
The facts are they are currently brutally oppressing part of their own population. How this leads you to believe they wouldn’t do so to some other portion of their population who might oppose them is, I believe, for you to demonstrate.
Do you deny this is a fact? Do you need me to find the cites for you? Really?
In case you were in ernest, I can recommend you begin with;
So Close To Heaven, Barbara Crossette
Tibet, The Road Ahead, Dawa Norbu
Trespassers On The Roof OF The World, Peter Hopkirk
The Tibetan Empire of Central Asia, Beckwith
This ‘public perception’ aspect, rather than the ‘understanding why and following rules’ aspect, is what leads to the AIDS in transfusions and the multiple melamine incidents. I’m not saying ‘oh, the Chinese don’t care that they’re hurting people.’ Rather, I’m asking, is the appearance of not doing harm more important than not doing harm? This is why I consider China to be full of land mines. People, I think, are industriously covering up all sorts of random crap, mostly negative, and eventually, it’ll either come out or it just won’t get discovered, but the negative effects remain. There’s no way it’ll all just wash away.
I’m not saying ‘you can’t trust any Chinese building contractor not to use substandard materials’, but I am asking how you can. As an example.
I really think this is a key point here. Confucianism is a lot like Judaism, as a religion of rules, but it’s also one that is accepted in violation a lot, and also corruption is built into it. From the stories and history I’ve read, the ‘peasantry’ are viewed as a fairly honest lot, only because they have nothing anyone wants. And the higher and richer you go, the worse things get.
Why do you think they don’t need to worry about people rising up in the streets? If things get bad enough, a repeat of the 1989 fiasco is a distinct possibility. The regime managed to survive last time, but there’s no guarantee that this will be the case next time. They’re going to do everything possible to avoid another massive uprising. Causing widespread poverty in the country will not be helpful. At all.
There is no gain in oppressing the Tibetan’s, yet they persist. Nothing helpful, to them, can be achieved, yet they persist. They have decimated the culture, displaced the populace, hold the territory, take nothing but crap over it, from all and sundry, and yet, they persist. There is nothing to gain that they don’t already have - yet they persist.
They are sending a message, loud and clear. We are all powerful, resistance if futile. I believe the general populace understands this. Mostly because they’ve all seen tanks in their streets killing innocents, unreasonably and to no advantage other than to consolidate the power of the party.
I don’t believe, “will not be helpful” is ever of concern to them. Witness the plight of the Tibetans.
It’s a pie chart that only charts foreign holdings of American debt. So China holds a bit over 20% of foreign held debt, but only 6% of all American debt.
You need to look at it from a* Chinese leadership point of view*. (Note: these are not my personal views.)
Tibet had de facto but most likely not de jeure sovereignity pre 1949 revolution. Check out the Legal Status of Tibet by Michael C. van Walt.
There are those that claim that the Long March surviving leaders of China held a grudge based on the way they were decimated when struggling through the Tibetan areas. The Yi Nationality for example had much more autonomy.
The international question of Tibet was setttled in the late 1950’s/early 60’s when the UK and US didn’t pursue the issue of sovereignity. Heck, the CIA gave up their covert operations. Th Chinese government view is that this was case closed nearly 5 decades ago. I know of no politically powerful country or the UN that is calliing for much less pressuring for Tibetan independance. Documented In Exile From the Land of the Snows by John Avedon.
Tibet is a buffer between India. Anyone trying to invade China from that direction has to make it through Tibet first. Same is true for Xinjiang, Mongolia and Manchuria.
Slippery slope. If China gives up historic claims to Tibet, which are essentially the same historic claims to Xinjiang, Mongolia, Manchuria, Taiwan, Diaoyutai Islands, Spratley Island and the Natuna fields, then could lose all this other territory. Eg, China could lose 1/2 of it’s land mass and massive sea claims.
There is very little to be gained by the Chinese leadership in granting Tibet independance and a lot of risk. The Chinese leadership would prefer good international press to bad, but protests by Western suburban college kids and yuppies frankly doesn’t cause any sleepless nights.
India presents only an imaginary threat to China and always has, that’s just the party line of justification. They are, not wrongly, convinced if they say it enough people will start believing it. An imagined threat is a pretty thin reason to invade another country. If it’s a done deal as you claim, five decades, then why the continued brutal oppression? To what end? It serves only one purpose and that is to demonstrate their political power. They’re still pissed because the terrain was rough during Mao’s days, seriously? Five decades of brutal oppression and ‘slippery slope’ is the best they can do?
And what of Taiwan, surely if Tibet is a done deal then Taiwan must be? But no, they don’t see it that way.
I am more than familiar with In Exile From The Land of Snows, having read it over a decade ago. And this, “college kids and yuppies”, slipping in a little more condescension, at the end. Nice to see you haven’t lost your touch! Being gray haired, I’m taking it as a compliment, but nice one, none-the-less!
Is google getting hammered by hackers? It’s wednesday Jan-27 and it was locked when I tried it (other engines worked fine). It’s working better but I still can’t access maps or news.
Ok, Let me get this straight. China wants to ban internet freedom to their people. Why?
To keep up the iron fist?
To save face? To appear correctly?
Because they hate Americans?
Because we owe them money?
Because of pornography?
Or as someone pointed out without a police presence it is chaos over there?
I thought it was about money and power. The Chinese own our debt and we own Google so it’s a power play. Interesting debate.
The power is the information they withhold from their own citizens.
Thanks Magiver. It makes me grateful we live in a free society.