The Christian god can't hate athiests.

[Badtz_Maru]

*Originally posted by Papermache Prince *
**Now picture a young woman by a waterfall eating fresh fruit.

ahh

(Of course, at your option you may choose different genders) **

Was it a banana?

[Triskadecamus]

*Originally posted by vorfod *
**Tris: Any argument used to get them into heaven is the beginning of a very slippery slope that ends in discrediting the whole Bible… **

Vorfod,

As I mentioned, I am unwilling to get into a biblical shoot out with you, or anyone over theological esoterica. The Bible is the story of people who met God. It is not the center of my faith. It is the source of great love and truth, if you read it for love, and seek truth. If you look for contradiction and condemnation you will see the reflection of your own desires.

I have posted to the thread only to assure those who might believe Christ hates them, or God hates them. It is so often claimed to be so, as if with God’s authority. But we who love Him, and love the Lord Jesus, must never allow that to stand unchallenged. These are just vain postures taken by petty men. God does not hate you. I say this without authority, but with serene confidence. God loves you.

I cannot give you proof of Him, or even of myself. But love is real, I am real, and so too is the Lord.

Tris

“You must be the change you wish to see in the world.” ~ Mohandas Gandhi ~

[TheRob]

I’m sorry I only read the first couple posts, but I wouldn’t think the Christian God should hate anybody being that most of the religious crap I hear says “God loves everyone blah blah blah Jesus loves you blah blah blah…” According to religions such as Christinianity most of us are going to hell anyway so I say:
JUST ENJOY YOUR LIFE, TRY NOT TO KILL PEOPLE UNLESS IT’S UNAVOIDABLE (ie. they try to kill you), DON’T MOLEST CHILDREN AND DON"T BE AN ASSHOLE ALL THE TIME.

[ImNotMad]

*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried *
These arguments are not very convincing either. They boil down to:
a) I can’t explain how something happened, so I’ll wave my hand and say “magic!” (aka God)

(or evolution?, multiverse?, maybe zero net energy?)

b) If I can’t explain the origin of something, I’ll invent a mysterious cause (also with no explanable origin) and assign it the name “God”. The fallacy in that approach seems self-evident.

Of course the self-evident fallacy is that you presume God is finite, a god which cannot possibly exist as a god at all.

c) The appreciation of beauty derives from the evolutionary process. Humans find a fresh fruit “beautiful” and a rotten fruit “ugly” because we eat fresh fruit. We find a waterfall beautiful because we drink water. A typical male will find a young woman beautiful because she can reproduce. etc… Granted that our society is so complex that these explanations seem simplistic, but originally I’m sure that’s how the concept of beauty came about.

And yet, we appreciate the beauty of art, music, literature, etc. What part of the evolutionary process does that derive from?

*Originally posted by super_head *
Ahhh, the problem here is that you assuming it is design - which by definition would require a designer. All you’ve done is define a god into existence, and yet, it doesn’t help the case for your specific god one bit.

Yet you assume it is chance, right?

You mean like the human eye which is so badly designed we have a blind spot? If you’re going to make the “god as engineer” argument, you end up painting him as a pretty weak one deserving of termination.

Bad design is still design.
Good design tainted with sin becomes bad; but, it is still design.

Furthermore, if you argue the complexity of design, then your god must be at least as complex as his creation no? So how does god get out of needing a designer - and where does the chain stop?

A finite god is no god at all; so, when do you think the chain stops?

Who says it was ever created? If the universe has a net energy of zero, then what’s the issue?

And if the universe does not have a net energy of zero, what’s the issue then? Do you believe the universe has a net energy of zero?

Except for that whole pesky omniscience thing getting in the way of free will.

Knowing <> Causing

[vorfod]

Tris: My apologies - I misunderstood your intent.

[Ben]

*Originally posted by ImNotMad *
or evolution

The difference between “God did it” and “evolution did it” is that the latter makes testable predictions and is supported by the evidence. Perhaps you’d care to explain creationism to us in this thread:

http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=81157

-Ben

[vanilla]

The way I’ve heard it, from a not-too-famous preacher, is Hell isn’t about burning and torture physcially.
The torment is being separated from God for eternity.
See, after you die, you realize God exists.
And He loves you and wanted you to be in Heaven forever with him. A big love-fest, as it were.
Of course, the problem is, God knows who will get saved and who won’t; and also, he makes some peoples hearts hardned to the message.
So its really His fault then, when atheists don’t get to Heaven.
Its hard to understand, admittedly.
Doesn’t seem quite fair.

[jab1]

*Originally posted by ImNotMad *
we appreciate the beauty of art, music, literature, etc. What part of the evolutionary process does that derive from?

The beauty of music may be because some melodies are mathematically compatible with our brain waves, while others are incompatible and thus we don’t like them. Literature is story-telling; story-telling is a great way to teach and learn; a good work of literature tells us what we want and/or need to know about the world and ourselves. It’s the same for the visual arts and there is a mathematical component to a well-crafted painting or sculpture. (Some people have measured well-known portraits like the Mona Lisa and discovered a precise geometric relationship between the position of the face relative to the rest of the image.)

Bad design is still design. Good design tainted with sin becomes bad; but, it is still design.

So now you think God can be a poor designer? I thought He was supposed to be infallible. If He was a perfect designer, He could have designed something that could not be corrupted by “sin”.

[Darwin_s_Finch]

*Originally posted by ImNotMad *
Bad design is still design.
Good design tainted with sin becomes bad; but, it is still design.

So, how does “sin” corrupt design? I thought sin was a result of action? How have plants sinned against God? Such an interpretation speaks of a petty, vindictive God, one who curses all life for the actions of two humans (not that there isn’t Biblical evidence to that effect anyway…); doesn’t sound much like a “God of Love” at all.

[Dr.Lao]

*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch *
So, how does “sin” corrupt design? I thought sin was a result of action?

If I understand the Christian perspective correctly, sin is not the result of actions, actions are the result of sin. Sin is a spiritual state that causes people to think and act immorally.

However, your point is well taken. Animals are amoral, spiritless beings and are incapable of sinning. But some Christians believe our sin effects more than our actions. It makes everything less than perfect. If I were a philosophy major, I could probably draw a comparison between this idea and Plato’s philosophy of ideal forms existing in an ideal plane (in this case, Eden before the fall of man).

[super_head]

*Originally posted by ImNotMad *

*Originally posted by super_head *
Ahhh, the problem here is that you assuming it is design - which by definition would require a designer. All you’ve done is define a god into existence, and yet, it doesn’t help the case for your specific god one bit.

Yet you assume it is chance, right?

Nope - chance would imply it was sheerly random. Obviously, natural selection isn’t. That aside, you didn’t address how your argument fails to prove any specific god - that you claim it as your own being responsible isn’t helped in the least.

You mean like the human eye which is so badly designed we have a blind spot? If you’re going to make the “god as engineer” argument, you end up painting him as a pretty weak one deserving of termination.

Bad design is still design.
Good design tainted with sin becomes bad; but, it is still design.

Except a perfect god wouldn’t create imperfection would he? Additionally, are you claiming that Adam’s optic nerve was in a different place until he bit the apple and then it suddenly moved? Wouldn’t that hurt? And wouldn’t it have been documented somewhere like “And Adam then fell to the ground and writhed in agony as some biological concept which we goatherders know not was happening within his head?”

Furthermore, if you argue the complexity of design, then your god must be at least as complex as his creation no? So how does god get out of needing a designer - and where does the chain stop?

A finite god is no god at all; so, when do you think the chain stops?

With Zombar the Freakish, one step higher than your deity of choice. Prove me wrong.

Who says it was ever created? If the universe has a net energy of zero, then what’s the issue?

And if the universe does not have a net energy of zero, what’s the issue then? Do you believe the universe has a net energy of zero?

I haven’t decided one way or the other, as I’ve not read enough on the subject to make a truly informed opinion. I was, however, presenting you with a natural explanation to counter that has been put forth. Perhaps when you rely on something other than “Goddidit” as an explanation, you’ll put forth something interesting too.

Except for that whole pesky omniscience thing getting in the way of free will.

Knowing <> Causing

In this case, yes, it does. If god created everything, and even before then knew how it would turn out - and could have chosen not to do it - then he is, indeed, responsible for all of it. The certainty of his knowledge condemns him.

Another interesting aspect of omniscience is that if god knows everything, then he knows everything he will ever do by definition. Thus, god can never do anything of which he isn’t already aware - and thus god has no free will. His course, just as ours, is set in stone. Sucks to be him.