From this, I take it that you’d support Palestinian-American teenagers flying a Hamas flag?
Sailboat
I’m white, Southern, had several ancestors who fought for the Confederacy (a couple of whom died in the War) and none of whom to my knowledge were particularly evil people. I’m well aware that most southerners who fought under that flag (or under the correct Confederate flags, rather= the whole Navy Jack dumbassery is particularly irritating to me) never owned slaves and that slavery was only one of many many issues that led to and sustained the war. I also think that Robert E. Lee was one of the most admirable men in American history and that the south does not now and has never had anywhere near a monopoly on racial intolerance and stupidity. I am a borderline rabid believer in free speech.
That said I think that that flag, or even the actual Confederate flags, have absolutely no business being displayed on public property or in public schools. I see this as no more of a free speech issue than if a student wanted to wear a swastika into class or a T-shirt featuring a burning cross or a recognized hate word (fag, gook, etc.) on their apparel. Regardless of how an individual means it to be interpreted it IS a well recognized banner of racism and of a regime that sought to keep millions of Americans in slavery, it WAS and IS an active symbol of hate groups and it is not in the least unreasonable that a black (or other non-white) student would find it offensive and racial effrontery. I’m white and a descendant of Confederates and I find it offensive- the South’s entry into that war was a world class masterpiece of hubris, poor planning and an absolute triumph of ideology over critical thinking and should be regarded as such.
If the school bans swastikas and inverted crosses, it should ban Confederate flags as well.
The same could be said of the Christian cross. I never get the fact that so many otherwise intelligent people on these boards have the attitude that things should be regarded only how they regard them because it is their opinion. In the South the Rebel Flag has been seen as a symbol of Southern Pride my whole life. I should regard it only as how you see it because why, you say so?
As a non-Christian who is constantly irritated by Fundamentalist and other religious posturing, I have no agenda when I say that I don’t think the Christian cross has yet come to symbolize primarily oppression. The cross is used worldwide and it has countless meanings to countless people, but to most it means “I am a Christian”, not “I hate gays and commies and non-Christians”. To some the latter is irrevocably bound to the former but I seriously doubt that it’s most.
The rebel flag, specifically this one (I’d have slightly less problem with this one this one or even this one for they at least show a tad more understanding of history) is meant to commemorate the Confederacy, on that I think there can be no doubt. Ignoring the fact that it’s actually a naval battle flag rather than the flag of the CSA, any reasonable person could I think rationally interpret that it is the flag or
1- a regime that in its Constitution established the inferiority of blacks to whites
2- a regime that ordered the execution of black men captured in military uniform
3- a regime that bloodily opposed the government of the United States of America and started a war that cost 600,000 men and many civilians to achieve (if only in part) the perpetuation of slavery
4- a regime whose members are DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for the Jim Crow laws and a reign of terror against blacks
5- a regime that was venerated and romanticized by the KKK so much so that it is invariably to be found in Klan rallies from the first ones in the late 1860s to the Klan renaissance following Birth of a Nation to this very day in fact
No feasible argument could be put forth that the Confederate flag is neither unAmerican nor racist. Its veneration shows veneration of a regime that was both.
Now, it could be argued that the United States flag was at one time the flag of a government that interred the Japanese, exterminated the American Indians, funded eugenics research, upheld the Jim Crow laws, etc., and a whole lot of other bad things, and that is true. It is also however the flag of a government that
1- has acknowledged its wrongdoing in these things and to some extent sought to redress them
2- provides much of the funding for public education
3- is alive (unlike the CSA) and commands the allegiance of its citizenry
I would also have a problem with somebody wearing an Iraqi flag to school or an anti-caucasian slogan. (I had a major problem with the “By Any Means Necessary” shirts because not only was it a threat [especially the ones with a picture of Denzel Washington as Malcolm X holding a rifle] but it completely distorted the… well, I’m getting off track.)
The cross was used by the Inquisition and the Klan (in a more flaming format), but it’s also used as a sign of peace and a sign of love, which to my knowledge the Confederate naval battle flag has never been. To know exactly how each person who wears it interprets it would require calling them in and asking them and assuming they’re telling the truth, or the far simpler “just don’t ban it”. If it’s offensive to Jews or Muslims or atheists then, frankly, so long as they are not being banned from wearing Star of David necklaces or kufis or whatever other signs there are of their religion the that’s something they simply need to learn how to live with because the cross is not JUST a symbol of a religion (or actually thousands of religion) that has in some incarnations and places and times been hostile to their own and therefore I couldn’t call it a hate sign (and this is somebody who can’t remember the first time he was told he was going to hell because of violating some biblical injunction or other).
The last ancestors I have who lived their entire lives outside the South were born and died in Ireland before 1850; before that every single branch of my family was south of Maryland before the Revolution. I’m related to myself several different ways, I grew up looking everyday at a photograph of one of my Confederate ancestors and we owned a sword that belonged to another- my credentials as a southerner are pretty unimpeachable. I have absolutely no shame about being Southern and there is in fact a lot I like about Southern culture that I miss when I’m traveling outside the South. But it’s possible to have pride as a Southerner (though personally I find any sort of demographics based pride a bit silly- what you have is actually lack of shame) without displaying a symbol that for very obvious and quite reasonable reasons symbolizes a very different thing in very recent history to roughly half the Southern population.
I haven’t taken my eloquence pills today but hopefully somebody will come along who can interpret and translate and hopefully expound on this.
PS- As far as flying the Confederate flag or for that matter the Nazi flag on private property, I have no real problems. I was actually irked recently when burning the cross for Klan rallies on private property was outlawed and I hope it’s overturned on appeal (and I hate those folks more than many black people probably do).
PS- How many of the people you have known who have used it as a symbol of Southern Pride were non-white?
PS- How many of the people you have known who have used it as a symbol of Southern Pride were non-white? Have you ever seen it displayed on the property of a black lawyer or flying over the admin building of a black college or on a T-shirt worn by a black high school student or as a bumper sticker on the car of a black doctor? I am somehow thinking “probably not”.
When has anyone ever been accused of being a supremacist for displaying a German flag? I doubt most casual observers even know which one is Germany. It used to be fashionable for college kids to wear old fatigue jackets with the West German, now German, flag emblazoned on the shoulder.
PPS- Dixiephrenia (2nd definition) is such a weird thing. Yesterday I was on a blog typing posts defending the restoration of Confederate landmarks (including Beauvoir, the [postbellum] home of Jefferson Davis which was very badly damaged by Katrina) as worthy of public funds [to a degree] and the Southern culture as something way more complex than racism and radicalism, and I absolutely meant that post as well as the ones in this thread.
This German flag I don’t have a problem with. This one I would. As for Israel, we’ve never been at war with them and in fact they’re an allie. The flag of Saddam’s regime I’d be a bit quicker to judge than I might the successor flag, but this is one I’d be willing to see argued by the student.
I thought your argument was eloquent, considering the subject, and I sympathize with it. My point was that although you have a valid argument, that doesn’t void those that have one just as valid with an opposite view. I do not know a black person that considers the RF anything other than a symbol of racism. That doesn’t mean that I must know one to validate the opposite view. I don’t know anyone from the south that considers the Civil War about nothing but slavery or anti-US. Nor do I personally know anyone that takes pride in the Rebel Flag because they believe it stands for racism. I have seen the KKK members standing on the side of the road flying the flag. I never saw them representing anything but ignorance and bigotry. They always wore white t-shirts and I recall them flying the US flag also.
I am not trying to sway you from the fact on how you view the Confederate Flag. You have your reasons. Just as others have valid reasons to see it the way they do. The main thing I took exception to was the “and it should be regarded as such” from your post. That is correct if you meant by yourself. Otherwise, I would be the last person casting the “hubris” stone.
No one is saying you shouldn’t regard the flag the way you want. But you need to be equally respectful when someone expresses THEIR interpretation of that symbol.
I find the Confederate flag as offensive as a swatiska. But if I’m driving down the street and I see it on someone’s pick-up truck, I can avert my eyes. I can avert my eyes when I see it flying on someone’s yard or affixed to someone’s roof (there’s a house in Ithaca, NY that has a giant flag on its roof…if they love the South that much they should move back down there). But if I’m in a classroom and the boy sitting in front of me has a Confederate flag emblazzoned across his back, I can’t avert my eyes. It’s not about differences of opinion. It’s the difference between being considerate and being a jackass.
There’s a lot of ways of showing Southern Pride. Proclaim your love of fried chicken and local colloquilisms. Memorize a quote from Mark Twain. Learn how to play the banjo. Those are the positive aspects of Southern culture. But waving a flag sullied by so much hatred and bad behavior is not a good way to show pride. It’s actually advertising the WORSE of that culture, not the best.
As for the US flag, my mother wouldn’t allow us kids to fly it in our house. It was just as bad as the Confederate flag, in her eyes. Personally, I don’t agree. While the Confederate flag has always stood for white supremacy, the US flag represents a constitution founded on the principles of equality, freedom for all. Those are laudable ideals, and when I see the US flag that’s what I think of. I don’t think of the bad stuff, or at least I try not to.
This isn’t 100% related to the OP, but I just remembered a conversation I had the other day with a co-worker. She’s one of those Southern-and-Proud-of-It types. She’s big on calling herself a “Southern lady” or “Southern belle”. Always talking about how she’s from Alabama, implying that it means she’s tougher/smarter/sassier than other people. I’m from the South and not ashamed of it, but I don’t feel especially connected to All Things Southern. So I find her schtick tiring after a while. It’s like she’s trying too hard. Anyway, we got to talking about race and ethnicity, and she expressed how tired she was of people talking about being black, Hispanic, etc. as if it means something. We’re all Americans, she said. Period. I think it is hypocritical of her to be down on people who are proud of their cultural backgrounds, while she’s always trumpeting her own. Either we’re all Americans Period, or we’re Americans from different subcultures, including rural Southern. I have a feeling that a lot of anti-multiculturalists are like this co-worker of mine.
So the US flag is debatable, but the Confederate flag is not?
The issue of the Confederate flag comes up constantly in Alabama. In fact we’re long overdue for a renewal of it so we’ll probably get it again this year since the Ten Commandments is currently losing steam. Many legislators have argued that because the Alabama capitol was in fact the first capitol of the Confederacy and the place where Jefferson Davis [turns, spits] took his oath of office (a bronze star still marks the spot) the Confederate flag (or, once again, the friggin’ Navy Jack, which never flew over the building) should fly under the state and U.S. flags and many times it has done so. This has of course raised ire by folks on both sides and the pandering on both sides has sometimes been right out of a musical comedy (again, I don’t have the least problem understanding why blacks have a problem with the flag, but a couple of the stunts pulled by black elected officials to remove it have made many just shake their head and look for the Daily Show van).
In a letter to the editor I pointed out the fact that there was one time in Alabama history when every single legislator who could be found voted unanimously to take down the Confederate flag. It was April 11, 1865, the day before General J.H. Wilson’s army (men who had just burned down the University of Alabama and half of Selma) entered the city. When he arrived the next day it was to a bunch of old farts greeting him with a “hey there dog, how you been? Come on up here and make yourself ter home, we don’t know what we were thinkin’ flying that flag up there. Oh, thanks for burning down Tuscaloosa and all, we been meanin’ to do that for years, y’all want some peanuts?” (I wasn’t quite that verbose, but it got considerable response for the next few weeks, most of it not exactly favorable.)
In Milledgeville, GA it was even funnier incidentally. That’s where the state legislature convened and resolved unanimously on Halloween, 1864, that they would fight and die to a man to protect their beloved state from the debacle of Union occupation. True story: the session ended early to give all of the legislators- ALL of them- the chance to catch the last southbound train before Sherman arrived in the city. By the time he got there, there wasn’t a legislator to be found.
Madonna but I do love demagogues.
I don’t understand why you can’t ignore it. If I saw some jackass wearing the hammer & sickle, a swastika, or the Confederate symbol I’d just note it, perhaps thinking as you that they’re a jackass, and move on to my studies.
Marc
Are you black or white? There’s a big psychological difference between being part of the majority in a culture or part of a minority. That’s why Jews worry more about swastikas and blacks worry more about confederate flags. German Christians and white Americans can afford to ignore organized intolerance; they’ve never been the victims of it. So these icons might just be meaningless fashion statements. Or they might be intended as a message: “We did it to you before and if we get a chance we’d like to do it again.”
Find where the Confederate constitution ever amended its views on slavery and the servility of the negro race.
Find an event in history where people waved the Confederate flag in SUPPORT of civil rights and racial equality.
If you can, then I will concede that you have a point.
I probably would ignore it, MGibson, because I’m a grownup. But if we’re talking about kids, then I don’t think it’s wise to expect them to just ignore blatant jackassery. And if we’re talking about an environment where people are expected to interact with one another respectfully and civilly, I don’t think it’s too unreasonable to restrict controversial symbols in that environment.
Yes, many people who display the symbols of the Confederacy have opinions about the Civil War which seek to whitewash the Southern cause (if you’ll pardon the expression). I don’t think it’s a subject on which one can validly say “Well, that’s just my opinion”, though. Of course people have the right to their opinion, in the sense that they shouldn’t be prosecuted by the government simply for their beliefs, but the question of why 11 Southern states chose to attempt to secede and form the Confederate States is a question of historical record, not just a matter of taste or personal opinion.
Actually Mississippi incorporated the Confederate emblem into its state flag back in 1894. Mississippi also made it darned clear why it chose to secede in 1861, so I don’t think it can just be a matter of opinion as to what the Mississippi state flag and other Confederate emblems stand for.
MsRobin, excellent points. Just the other day, I heard a discussion on the radio about what the Israeli flag means. The thesis was that the two blue stripes signify land delineations and that basically, the flag is a map of what the (newly recognized) Israelis said was the land that God proclaimed to be theirs.
This Arutz Sheva ( Israel National News page says
A classic scholarly explanation of the history and development in design of the Israeli Flag can be found here. The Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs uses similar cites in it’s presentation of the history of the flag.
Who is right? Who accurately portrays the meaning of the flag? The fight over iconography with any given image is never a quick and painless one. Some images or icons are more inflammatory than others ( the cartoon images of Mohammed that are causing worldwide outrage within and without the Moslem community, for example ). Others have wildly different interpretations attached to them- witness the Israeli Flag cites above.
Why shouldn’t he be allowed to show a German flag, out of pride for his heritage? I would WAG that a lot of flag display has to do with context as much as law. If your Ex was showing that flag out the window his apartment in Washington Heights in upper Manhattan in NYC, he would have provoked outraged in the entire community. Why? Large chunks of Washington Heights are populated by whole communties, moved in toto from Nazi Germany during WWII. A whole village or area would move with their Rabbi, live near each other and pray in a shul founded by their own. I know this to be fact, my paternal grandparents did exactly this.
New York City is a pretty diverse town, and yet- if one were to display the Kwanzaa Flag in Howard Beach, Queens, well… one would be looking for violence, for that neighborhood is infamous as the site of several racially-motivated, high-profile acts of violence. Two Radically
Different takes on that story.
I’m not trying to advocate suppressing anyone’s right to display a flag, but I do understand too well how strongly iconography can incite in a way that an articulately written pamphlet might or might not. We are visual creatures, and given a certain set of facts or at least information, when presented with an icon, we respond a certain way.
If your Ex was given shit about displaying the German Democratic Republic flag, it was likely by those who associate modern-day Germany with the Nazi era. Having travelled through parts of Western Europe, and in many places in the USA, and having seen a lot of graffitti, ( admittedly a non-scientific method !! ), I’ve seen more Nazi and Supremacist graffitti in Italy, and the USA than in Germany. By a long shot.
Now, to the OP. The Confederate flag doesn’t seem to havee a very ambiguous history, does it? The book Colors and Blood is a treatise on the flag, the people of the Confederacy who made them and how it was used post-Civil War in the south as a unifying and isoloating tool. I find it to be incredibl offensive, because from what I have seen and read it has no history, no noble past. It is an icon that was developed to empower an isolated portion of America and allow them to view themselves as more than separate but equal- the Confederates truly believed they would win, and that their way of life ( based on a slave-supported economy of material goods ) would dominate North America.
They lost. They’re angry. It’s 2006. They lost 140 years ago, and the inciteful aspect of that flag has lost none of it’s power.
Cartooniverse
I don’t think anyone has ever argued otherwise. The premise that I am debating is the fact that the Confederate Flag must be seen as a representation of racism.