Hmm. I’m not sure what you are saying.
I just dont understand why democrats dont see this as a simple ideological difference? Why cant you have issues with Biden’s and democrats approach to issues like taxes? What if someone just didnt like Hillary Clinton or Joe Biden? Instead Trump supporters are called racist, sexist, xenophobic and such.
Granted many republicans see Biden supporters as communists.
This goes back though, people said the same for people who voted for Bush.
Frankly I think most people are in the middle and really didnt like either candidate but had to vote anyways so they picked the one they hated the least.
You can do that and vote for Republicans. You can’t do that and vote for Trump.
In a fair world Trump would have lost every State even while the GOP maintained its current results in Congress.
Have you considered the possibility that these particular ideologies are fucking terrible?
It’s not. Ideological differences are just a small part of it. Even if Trump aligned with every one of my policy preferences, I still couldn’t support him, because he’s an authoritarian demagogue with sociopathic issues.
Do you see him as someone who respects the separation of powers and the rule of law? Do you think his behavior is that of a psychologically healthy adult?
First, I listen to as much Fox News as to any other news outlet. The dystopian picture they paint of what Biden/Harris will do is bullshit straw men fabricated out of whole cloth.
Pure propagandistic fear-mongering.
The things people hate about Trump are true and excruciatingly well documented – usually videotape of his own words coming from his own mouth.
My question for you is: when a hard-line “Progressive” gets voted into office as POTUS, do you really want them doing all of the same things, and acting the same way, as this guy in order to get /their/ agenda passed, enrich /themselves/, and ensure /their/ re-election ?
In other words: how will you feel when the person you utterly cannot stand follows Donald Trump’s (and family’s) precedent ?
And … no. No Democrat in modern history has come anywhere close. Not by a country mile.
You absolutely can! I guarantee you that if the planks of the two primary parties were composed entirely of substantive differences of opinion on matters of actual governance, there’d be significantly less pushback on the left. I know I would be far more comfortable. This is no longer an issue of whether the top marginal tax rate should be 26% or 34%, this is about fundamental values and perceptions of reality itself. A thinking person can have a debate on what the best way to combat climate change is, maybe you prefer a mega-engineering approach rather than a too rapid adjustment to a zero net carbon economy… or think nuclear is the way to go… or endorse using GMOs to better capture carbon or feed us in a warming climate. Those are all issues with people on both sides who have valid points. What is not valid is to say that the problem doesn’t exist in defiance of every scrap of scientific evidence and support immensely destructive extractive industries that aren’t even especially economically viable anymore because it triggers the libs.
A thinking person can object to large increases in immigration due to a variety of reasons, maybe you feel like we’re unfairly exploiting brain drain from developing countries… or you worry about a degradation in wages or worker’s rights… or you think there are legitimate assimilation issues due to lack of infrastructure. What I can’t countenance is barely (if at all) veiled racism and xenophobia, boiling down to a fundamental notion that this is and always should be a predominantly white, christian, English speaking country. We’re a country of ideas, laws, shared history and aspirations… not any particular race, creed or language. Not the country I believe in and want, anyway.
A thinking person can have a difference of opinion about the role of police and best ways with which to provide necessary oversight. What is unacceptable is statistically provable bias being handwaved away and instance after sickening instance of unarmed people, sometimes fleeing, sometimes disabled… getting killed within seconds of interaction with police, being excused again and again. It’s not reasonable to look at the vast differences in how our police operate and how police in other advanced democracies do things and think there’s not a problem.
This isn’t about policy, I wish it was.
Moderating
This is not really a constructive approach. Let’s stick to suggestions of effective arguments per the OP.
This is just a note, a nudge to stay on track.
I wish I knew a good approach, other than “just not talking about it to avoid really BIG ugly blowouts”. I think support may be just a purely emotional reaction in a lot of people- and in those who don’t support him as well. It’s not a logical issue.
I have family who are/were supporters. I don’t know if they voted that way this year- we haven’t talked about it.
‘How can we have constructive disagreements?’
‘Easy: suspend all critical thinking and accept the made up concerns of the other side as valid, and debate on their terms.’
‘Um, that is a terrible idea’
‘Ugh, why is the left so unreasonable?’
Because it’s trite.
It’s understood that there are ideological differences between us. To understand why there are ideological differences between us is to dig into them individually and to try to uncover why they exist. But we can never get below the surface with most conservatives (you, for example), because once the conversation gets deep, you cut and run for the safe ground of ‘ideology and belief’ rather than a deeper underlying understanding.
I’m happy to have this and any other conversation with you (and those like you) at any time. But I simply don’t have any reason to think that you will stick around to see it through to it’s logical conclusion. At least you’ve not demonstrated the willingness to date. I’d be thrilled to be proven wrong.
How do we handle the reflexive cries of “liberal indoctrination” that already take place when we simply try to teach Math, Science, and English in the public schools ?
How do we teach people how to evaluate on their own the credibility and sources of information when our best universities – the goal of elites from every corner of the world – are painted as KGB test sites or George Soros brainwashing labs ?
Finland’s approach is great, but … it has a likelihood of succeeding in Finland (or many other countries) for the same reason that many other things work there that probably wouldn’t work here: they aren’t a nation of jingoistic, flag-waving, “rugged individuals.”
Exploring ways to inculcate ‘critical thinking skills’ and foster critical evaluation of information … midst a tsunami of anti-intellectualism, “tyranny,” “Communism,” “Marxism,” “Socialism,” and “fake news” … boy … tall order.
A cousin of mine has posted about 30 different things about Parler and Solikick in the last few days. When sunlight (“the best disinfectant”) gets into the room these people are in, they simply find another that’s still chthonically dark.
For the last four years, I have offered, “When the things we hate about him are the things they love about him … where do we go ?”
That’s one piece. Everything else I wrote in this post … IMHO … is another – (maybe) equally insoluble.
I voted for Trump and if somebody uses those slurs I immediately tune them out. That is NOT an effective way to persuade 70+ million people including the black women and LGBT that doubled their Trump support from 2016.
I tune out people who habitually bold their text thinking it improves their argument.
You voted for a man who bragged that he likes to grab women by the pussy without their consent. One has to take that as tacit approval of misogyny. That’s what we don’t understand about Trump supporters. You tolerate the most disgusting attitudes toward women and minorities and then get offended when we call you racist or sexist.
You do realize that Bill Clinton was given a prominent speaking role at the Democratic Convention?
Bill Clinton is also a misogynist piece of shit. Bill Clinton is not President of the US. Whataboutism is not going to fly here. We are all responsible for our actions regardless of what the other side does.
This is why constructive argument fails.
All I can tell you is that trying to convince me that Biden is less of a misogynist will not be effective. I’ve seen how he humiliates women in public. I know about Tara Reid.
Another example of why constructive arguments fail. It’s alternative facts all the way down.
Be honest. Was the treatment of women even a factor in your decision? Do you care about it at all?