Okay, inspired by events of this weekend, I want to open a debate on the perception of cults in America these days. I was raised in a polygamist cult/offshoot of the LDS church. Someone who’s read John Krakauer’s “Under the Banner of Heaven” may recognize the name of John Bryant, the leader of my parents’ religion. What I hope to accomplish here is to A) get the perceptions of those who are “on the outside” so to speak, and B) answer any questions anyone may have regarding the life in such a religious organization.
So, what is the general perception among Dopers, and Americans in general, of cults/cult members. Oh, and since this is GD, are cults evil, or misguided, or just plain different?
I think the general perception is that cult members are brainwashed and either fools, tools, or victims of the cult.
The (b) part of your post could be very interesting if people have questions about your particular organization that are not normally public information.
As John said, I regard cult members as being unfortunate people who are weak of mind or desperate for something and fall under the spell of an unscrupulous psychopath. The saddest part of it is the kids who get dragged in through no fault of their own.
For part B, how did you leave? and how old were you when you started to reject the cult’s teachings.
See, John F that’s just it, my parents are neither fools, tools, or victims. They saw many things they didn’t like about current society and decided to isolate themselves partially from it. I don’t think it’s a good thing, but to me it seems like they wanted all of the benefits of living in this country (free education, welfare), without the drawbacks (one marriage partner at a time).
Larry, I "left"when I got old enough to go to college, but my parents weren’t really the brainwash variety. I was allowed to make my choice, whether to continue in their church, when I was 14.
I have a question, regarding you being brought up in it; to what level were you considered children “of the cult”. I mean in terms of, did your parents raise you completely, or was it more a case of being looked after by other adult members of the cult too?
As regards your questions, I would say that cult members tend to be misguided more than evil; they’re taken in when they’re vulnerable, and are influenced by the leader or the works of that cult. Sadly, cult leaders tend to be either evil/insane/selfish, and that seems to trickle down through the members. Charismatic people do tend to abuse their power a lot, unfortunetly.
There are probably cult leaders who are nice, friendly people, but i’d imagine nice friendly people would try not to influence others in that way. Could be wrong, though.
I haven’t read Krakauer’s book, but you seem to be describing what I’d call an eccentric religion rather than a true cult. For me to be a cult a sect should use some sort of coercion or manipulation to keep their members in line.
Revenant Threshold, I was raised by many people, and was required to call all of the older women “mother (insert name here)” or “father (insert name here)”. Made it a little hard to identify my real mother out of the bunch. On the other hand, there were many kind women who I still consider to be my friends and in a very real sense, mothers to me. Some others, not so much.
John Bryant is both a “nice, friendly” person and still selfish and manipulative. very human in other words. Doesn’t everyone have these qualities mixed to greater or lesser degree?
hmm, okay, you’re making me question my assumptions here a little. I thought a cult was pretty much a small niche religion that held beliefs contrary to the dominant ones (for instance Christianity in the early stages).
I remember hearing somewhere (great cite, huh) that one common characteristic of cult members was that they had a difficult time recognizing that people have good and bad sides. They see people in absolutes, as being either good or evil. Thus when the cult leader does something good–reaches out to them when they are down, takes them in when they have nowhere else to go–they cannot process the fact that someone who would behave in such a compassionate friendly manner would be a manipulator and a sociopath.
Without more information about the group they are part of it’s hard to say more.
Aligning yourself with like minded individuals is one thing and falling victim to a cult is another. Once you are part of a cult things get fuzzy and there are powerful emotions involved. Even past members have shame that causes them to defend things they would otherwise see as foolish from some other perspective?
I’m not judging your parents just giving you my general impression of cult members.
What exactly is the name of the group you are talking about so I can do a little reading and then ask more pointed questions?
Actually, and sorry for the triple post, when I really consider it, there is the surface of what was going on, and then the undercurrents. I do know that there was coercion going on at some stages and with certain people. But by the time I was really of my conscious of my surroundings, the church had splintered into factions, and I could never get a straight answer. My father, his three wives, twelve children, and various peripheral memberswere one faction, and I think to a large extent they were the ones who didn’t agree with the coercion that had been going on to that point. But back in the beginning, well…
They call themselves the “Church of the New Covenant in Christ”. I’m not really sure what kind of info you can dig up, but there was a large raid on the ranch compound of the church back in late 1980, it was in Fairhaven, Nevada, and was written up in many of the Las Vegas newspapers. happy hunting!
Yes and no. According to ex-moonie Steven Hassan a destructive cult is one where the cult attempts to weaken a person’s sense of identity and self and replace it with an identity that is useful to the cult. In his view most cult members are disillusioned college students who have had a major life event happen lately (ie people who don’t really have a strong sense of identity on several layers who as a result are susecptible to being manipulated) who are pulled into cults that use effective methods of mind control.
Then again mainstream religions do that too. I remember reading the book ‘influence’ once and remembering that pretty much all of the tactics the author discussed to subtly control and manipulate people were used by a youth group meeting I went to once when I was a teenager. An example would be the fact that they asked us to fill out cards explaining why it is good to be a christian, the author of the book Influence talks about how things like this cause subtle cognitive shifts that make someone more prone to looking at issues one way or another. So mainstream religions do the same thing. Another example of mainstream religions using mental manipulation techniques is by saying that Satan (for example) is the force that makes you doubt your religion’s validity, if you doubt the church it is because of Satan. So whether you agree or disagree with christianity, if you adopt this view then the religion still holds true as there is no legitimate reason not to believe it (basically either you believe it to be true or you are being deceived, either way you believe it to be true).
So at the end of the day, I guess both mainstream and offshoot religions use psychological pressure to gain and keep converts, then again some mainstream and small time ones do not.
I left for many reasons. mainly, though, since I was a teenager, a better question would be “why don’t I go back now?” and the answer to that would be that I think John Bryant is a sanctimonious prick with a big ego. good enough for ya?
on a different line of thought on the definition of “cult”, Larry, I’m assuming that you get your definition from what the mainstream, public conception of them to be. But, my perceptions, being raised inside, probably differ from the mainstream perception.
Let me put it this way. When Waco was raided, in order to legitimize the raid, the government had to demonize the followers of Koresh. In actuality, the neighbors described them as slightly weird, but good people (sorry, no cite, but talked about in Russ Kick’s “You are Being Lied to”). The raid on my parents and their friends was very similar, in fact I believe the Las Vegas Sun had headlines describing us as and"Incest Cult", this would be in Oct. '80, I think. The only real difference is the end result: Waco ended with a deadly conflagration; nobody died in our raid.
I read Krakauer’s book last year, and my first question to the OP would be: Are you male or female? Seems like the Fundamentalist LDS movements are a pretty good deal for men and a very lousy deal for women. Or, at least it’s a good deal for the men who “go along to get along”.
There’s cults, and there’s cults. There’s cults of really effed up people, and there’s cults of people who follow someone who seems to have a good idea. Heck, we’re partially a cult of Cecil Adams, now, aren’t we?
Since the cult was pretty religious in nature–I’m guessing from its name–do your beliefs still run along the lines of the cult’s?