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How can the Dalai Lama choose the next Dalai Lama if he has not passed from this world to be available to return?
It’s all make believe. Like time travel literature, there are so many exceptions that the story tellers just hope to make up enough rules and counter rules to keep your head spinning.
Well, if one reads the article, the issue is made fairly clear in it. While by longstanding tradition the offices of Dalai and Panchen Lamas are filled by, at first, young children who are selected because they show evidence (or at least what counts for evidence in Lamaism) of being the reincarnation of the person who was the last Dalai Lama – in fact, the only person, in their belief system, to have ever held the office, dying and being reborn and found again. I.e., soul #983,407, who was the first Dalai Lama, is reincarnated as the second one, and then as the third, etc.
So traditionally, given a belief in reincarnation, one individual, soul #983,407, has been the person who has held that office for 700 years or more. But there is nothing to demand that the office ‘Dalai Lama’ be filled by th same individual except the longstanding tradition that it is. And it’s been made clear by the case of the Panchen Lama, the #2 lama in Tibetan ecclesiology, that China will intervene to make sure that the person identified as the reincrarnation of the Dalai Lama is someone supportive of Beijing’s rule over Tibet. I.e., the Dalai Lama will have supposedly experienced a conversion to neo-Maoist principles while discarnate. In practice, of course, it will be the case that the Chinese authorities over Tibet will pick a pliant child and tell him what he’s going to announce.
To prevent this, the present Dalai Lama is prepared to quit the job after this lifetime, instead being prepared to help find his successor by either a democratic or an autocratic I-choose-my-heir process. In other words, even buying into a reincarnation scheme, the office passes to someone new – but someone the man who is presently Dalai Lama can trust to be the spiritual leader of his people.
Maltese Bippy, I think you’ll find that the overwhelming majority of members here don’t hold with reincarnation and would disagree with the beliefs which I’ve attempted to summarize above. However, if we should choose to argue it, we’d take that argument to Great Debates (and adduce support for our opinions, or be prepared to have them shredded by others). General Questions is not for that purpose, but for answers to factual questions – and while “Who does the Dalai Lama reincarnate as?” is not a factual question, “What do Tibetan Lamaist Buddhists believe about whom the Dalai Lama reincarnates as?” is. As I recall, nd_n8 tends to agree with you on matters metaphysical, but wanted to find out how you work a reincarnation gimmick while someone is still alive. In practice, it’s by treating the office as separable from the person they believe has always held it, through 11 supposed incarnations.
You are exactly right in my intentions with this thread Polycarp. I did not want to enter a theosophical debate on the dogma of Buddhism or reincarnation.
I do remember reading on his website that the current Dalai Lama was considering making this his last trip so to speak.
I do wonder if this move will edge the Tibetian culture closer to a secular governance, which would in the end suit the Chinese just fine (secular leaders are easier to control politically, for examples see Middle East). It is also interesting to think what this sort of move might do to other Buddhist movements, like the current protests in Myanmar and various political disputes in Nepal. Speculation on this may also be best served in GD.
FWIW, I do have a lot of respect for Kundun based on his teachings and writings. I am not a Buddhist, I am not a Catholic either but had almost as much respect for PJPII.
The original, fact based question was answered nicely by Polycarp. (I hadn’t thought it through quite that much.) Thank you
I would second that. I kept returning to this thread, hoping someone would come along as Polycarp did.
That’s an excellent post, Poly, but I don’t think that it was that clear in the article. I thought the article left it pretty unclear whether the DL is suggesting that another “soul” take over as DL, or if he is quietly implying that reincarnation is not a useful model for describing what happens when a successor is chosen. More information would definitely be helpful.
Thank you, Polycarp, for a thoughtful answer.
Historically the the Dalai Lamas (Wiki site, but, nicely succinct, link to current 14th Dalai Lama worth a read, too) have had a long and checkered past with Chinese political tribulations in Tibet. I’ve read a lot on it, but have to admit I’m no scholar when it comes to this ancient relationship. Suffice it to say, there is a long history of Chinese intervention in the leadership of Tibet.
The current Dalai Lama is a very astute man, widely read and versed in the ways of the modern world, as well as the highest bearer of an amazing body of knowledge from the Tibetan culture. It’s sad, but one of the results of Tibetans being forced from their country by the Chinese is that that knowledge has come to the West. I know I have benefitted from those teachings immensely.
HH the Dalai Lama has for a long time said that the Tibetan goverment should be more democratic, and has made those provisions should the government in exile be allowed back into their home country. The departure from the traditional selection of the next Tibetan leader goes along with that, and, is an astute move in light of what happened with the Panchen Lama. The 14th Dalai Lama is known world-wide, and what he says will be noted by all, those decisions by the Tibetan government in exile as to their next leader then cannot be ignored, as was the case with the Panchen Lama. With that beloved a world figure, China will be held accountable if they ignore the Dalai Lama’s specific bequeathing of a new leader to the Tibetan people.
I don’t doubt at all that the decision will be made with the best interests of the Tibetan people, and he continuation of their culture , in mind, with great deliberation and thought. This is an extreme time for them, with ancient historical example on which to base that decision. It truly is a matter of a culture’s survival. Extreme measures for extreme times. And, a remarkable, and generous decision. If, by all accounts in your society, you were a being that could hold the highest position in your country, for umpteen lives, would you give that up?
There’s other things at play there, but I’ll leave it at that.
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It will be an interesting process to watch. I would think that it is likely that HHTDL would choose the embodiment of a previous Buddah (or name one as such) but, if it appears in the best interest of preserving Tibetan culture I would not be suprised if no such designation is made. The successor may just be a monk.
That historically is a pretty naive view. IIRC it was the 5th Dalai Lama who actually held the title. Put on that position by the Mongolians and the previous ones were posthumously awarded the title.
If you buy in that Boddhisatva’s can direct their reincarnation, then one would expect that the DL will reincarnate outside of Tibet/China or choose not to reincarnate. He’s been on record for 2 decades that the DL may end with him. For interesting reading, please see John Avedon’s In Exile From the Land of the Snows.
Here’s a link to a free ebook for Charles Bell seminal work Tibet: Past and Present, written when he was the English envoy to Tibet in the 1920’s.
Otherwise, although I have strong feelings on this subject, I will bow out of the debate given my location.
I think Polycarp pretty much nailed it. However, while I don’t want to risk
dragging this into the religious debate world, there are a couple of small points of buddhist doctrine which may be worth addressing as they may help explain the DLs options:
Buddha specifically taught a doctrine of anatman, or no-soulness; arguing that the ego, the perception of self that people believe to be themselves, is in fact an illusion, and what gets incarnate is not an irreducible nugget of a person, or soul. One of the key concepts he taught was the temporary and illusory nature of things, perhaps most importantly the illusory nature of the self. So to speak of the DLs soul incarnating someplace else is not reincarnation as buddhists understand it.
In addition, the Dalai Lama is an incarnation of the protector boddhisatva of Tibet. As I understand it, a boddhisatva such as Cherenzig can have multiple incarnations. For another person to become an avatar (used in the religious sense, not the 2nd life sense) of a boddhisatva is not a problem from a doctrinal standpoint, anymore than (back home in the south) the holy spirit moving two different people.
As China Guy points out, a dying Dalai Lama would often give clues as to where he intended to incarnate, and a simple (perhaps too simple to work) option for the current DL would be to go on record saying he was going to incarnate among the Tibetan expatriate community. But that may be a naive view.
Curiously, I happen to be soul 983,407 - is that a coincidence or what?
China Guy, I do wish you could elaborate and give some depth to the discussion, but understand that your location might be limiting that. I really want to understand the complicated relationship between China and Tibet, have read the first book mentioned years back, and, it begs a re-read now, with more mature focus, especially in light of China’s current rise to the world forefront.
Attack From… Yes, likewise, not wanting to go into Great Debates with this, but to show a more concrete answer for the OP: Buddhist concept of reincarnation is not of one self , or personality, continuing in life. The best explaination/image is of a candle flame, lighting one candle to another with the same spark. It’s not the same candle, but the spark lights the continuation of life.
In your second point, an avatar can be considered to transcend time, with multiple incarnations and information available to make decisions. That’s why I said “I’ll leave it at that” above, because I in no way can adequately explain that, but, that is at play here in a well-established, articulate tradition. I do know that Buddhism is very pragmatic, and adaptable.
Whatever HH the Dalai Lama does as to a successor, it is well-thought out, with all information available, and in the most compassionate way to the Tibetan people.
I certainly never expected to read something like this on the SDMB. You realize that he’s admitted himself that he isn’t actually a god-king, right? The god part, anyway, I guess he doesn’t have much say over the king part, either way. Are there any American politicians you have so much blind faith in?
cite? AFAIK, the DL has never ever said he is a god-king. He may say some people call him that, but he doesn’t refer to himself that way. That’s a poor label by misinformed reporters from about 100 years ago applied to the 13th DL that persists today. Correctly speaking he is/was the temporal and spiritual leader of Tibet.
He is believed by Tibetans/Tibetan Buddhism to be the human incarnation of Chenrenzig, and I’ve never seen anything from the DL that recants that, or his own personal belief that he is a reincarnation. His brother, another tulku (or recognized reincarnation) who IIRC was a professor at Indiana State, wrote in his autobiography that he did not “remember” his previous lives.
DL describes himself as “a simple buddhist monk.” If you search, there are hundreds of hits.
This link answers many of the OP’s questions, quite eloquently, well-worth the read. I saw it on ChinaGuy’s list, and thanks given. I should have thought also to go to that site for good answers.
Thanks to ChinaGuy and elelle for all of the great information.
This is quite insightfull. In the link provided by ChinaGuy and singled out by elelle I found this paragraph:
<Bolding mine>
I note that the 14th DL refers to the 13th DL in third person. This is consistant with what Attack from the 3rd dimension said about HHTDL not being a *re-incartnation * but an incarnation. This makes more sense to me. It also provides insight about how the next DL may be chosen.