And then kill the people who killed the ones in the other boat, right? 
I cannot see the Joker leaving people out of those boats alive.
Speaking of another one of his ideas… whatever happened to Gamble’s henchmen? He broke a cue in half, threw it on the floor, and then said there was just one open position… I don’t remember seeing any of them later on…
Also, what is death by Trojan Horse?
Actually, it was more of an homage to Johah Hex, another DC character.
At the theater where I saw it, there was neither a Bond trailer nor a Watchmen trailer. Grumph.
That last speech of Gordon’s looked like a funeral eulogy. But it might simply have been a press conference. I am of the opinion that Two-Face is likely to be the major villain in the next movie.
As for Batman and Rachel falling out of the skyscraper, I got the opinion that they used Batman’s cape/parachute/hang glider, that had previously been introduced in the Hong Kong scene.
Joker’s henchman with the bomb in his belly. Like Odysseus, the Joker tricked his enemies into bringing his weapon into the midst of their most fortified place, then attacked them from within.
Our theater didn’t cheer, but it got a few laughs. Including my friend and I. I don’t know, the line was delivered perfectly and the timing was right on. Of course it’s sick. It’s black humor. I thought it was funny.
Random thoughts:
I’m conflicted about Maggie G. versus Katie Holmes. I think using the same actress for the role would have made her death more affecting, but at the same time, Katie Holmes was never believeable in that role, IMO. She’s not a bad actress, but she has limited range. She’s great at playing an angry teenager in a WB series or a B horror flick, but I couldn’t buy her as an ADA.
As for Maggie, she was fine. Really reminded me of Kirsten Dunst for some reason. They don’t really look that much alike, but something about her facial expressions and acting tics kept making me think “MJ? What are you doing here?” Anyone else notice this?
I only vaguely remember what went on in Batman Begins, I’m not an avid follower of the Batman universe, but I enjoyed the hell out of this movie. Some of the scenes were kind of confusing but reading this thread cleared a lot of it up.
Some people way upthread complained about the “Batman voice”. This actually made sense to me. All superhero flicks require a certain suspension of disbelief to enjoy them, but a common flaw is that the costumed masked hero often talks to people he knows, using his normal voice. (Spiderman is a good example of this). It makes sense to distort his voice to keep his identity secret.
It can’t be said enough that Heath Ledger was fantastic. He stole the show. It’s a crying shame he won’t be able to reprise the role. Such a waste of life and talent.
Maybe they could do a CGI Joker, like Angelina in Beowulf. You’d have to figure out some way to do the voice…either a good voice actor, or a modern speech synthesizer. The Uncanny Valley might actually work to a great benefit, in this particular case.
Now THIS is the only thing I have a complaint with - I live in an area with Ferries like those shown in the movie - and there isn’t a hold down below - it’s the ENGINE ROOM. (I think the guy who makes the discovery may even SAY something like 'The Engine Room is full off…") I seriously doubt that Joker could get rid of TWO ferry crews, load the bombs on the boats and have no one notice.
I still found a giant glaring lapse in logic for “let’s pack tons of people on two small inescapable vessels”
“Wait, doesn’t the Joker have bombs and RPGs and various other implements of destruction to sink us with?”
“Nah, I’m certain this is safe despite all of that.”
“If you say so…”
I actually find that believable. Never assume that authorities will think it through and make the right judgement, especially once a panic has started.
Go figure. We had the 007 Quantum of Solace trailer, which looked pretty good, but not the Watchmen trailer, which luckily I’d already seen online, thanks to the SDMB thread. I love the Dope!
I’ve been thinking a lot about the movie since I saw it (as evidenced by my other post in the thread discussing potential villains in the next sequel) and while Ledger’s performance easily deserves the recognition it’s received, I just don’t think it’s as strong of a story as ‘Begins’. I don’t think it had what I’d consider gaping plot holes, although the sonar listening device was a bit of a stretch and a silly plot device, although not a big sticking point for me. One of the big sticking points for me was Batman choosing to become a martyr by taking the fall for the murders committed by Dent. I get the whole need to preserve Dent’s image and the need for Gotham to continue believing in his cause to maintain order, and while I know Batman’s perhaps a bit of a masochist, I don’t understand why Gordon and Batman wouldn’t just agree to chalk up the murders to Joker and/or the mob. Why would he choose to be a fugitive? I know Batman shuns attention and recognition and would just as soon be recognized as a menace to the good people as to the bad guys in order to preserve his reputation as a symbol of dread rather than of heroism, and I suppose it makes for a compelling twist … but I still don’t get it.
Assuming you were asking me, I was referring to the scene where the Joker is brought in, supposedly as a dead body, wrapped in garbage bags to the one black mafia dude’s place.
The answer may be upthread, but it comes from the Italian mob boss in the movie. He refuses to help Batman because he knows that Batman won’t kill him, but Joker will. Now the bad guys don’t know that any more.
Is this any more or less plausible than somehow distributing explosive charges throughout Gotham General Hospital?
As far as the movie itself, it has some problems at the screenplay level (most of which have already been mentioned in the thread, e.g. the penthouse full of forgotten party guests), but in general, as far as what the movie is actually about and how it’s constructed, I think it’s pretty close to incredible. I never would have expected a putative popcorn flick to be the best fictional/metaphorical examination of our post-9/11 mindset so far, but here it is. The filmmakers never take their eye off the ball; as hugely epic as the story and its world eventually become the themes are sharpened to a microscopically fine razor’s edge. No one escapes; even the survivors are emotionally bruised and morally compromised.
Also, I’m a little concerned about how many more of these movies can be made, and how much more thematic value can be mined from this vein. Batman, being a fairly dark character (ignoring the TV show, the Schumacher movies, and the 60’s comics run), lends himself to explorations of moral complexity. But Batman Begins and especially now The Dark Knight are putting together what seems to be the definitive statement about the impossible balance we expect from this kind of hero — somebody who’s willing to do the things we can’t do ourselves, to stain his own soul to protect us from the worst of the worst, but who must simultaneously stay on the right side of an arbitrary and flexible moral line lest he be condemned and attacked by those he seeks to protect. There’s a serious risk of this exploration becoming repetitive and predictable. I’d say there’s one more movie here, a conclusion to a trilogy, in which they sum up what they have to say and then move on.
Then it’s time for the postmodern deconstructionism to take over, when Watchmen arrives and (fingers fervently crossed) takes the dialogue to a new level.
I think the detonators were connected to the opposite boats. After all, if they weren’t, and a passenger hit the button, then everyone would know the joker’s game was crooked, and no one would play his games anymore. No one would try to kill the batman blackmailer if they knew the joker would blow up the hospital anyway.
But the Joker blew up the hospital anyways… He had the bombs planted, and he detonated the device without checking if the blackmailer was dead or alive. He wanted the distraction in order to talk to Harvey and change him over, and once he played that (and succeeded), he detonated the building. He couldn’t care less about the blackmailer’s fate.
I prefer to believe that detonators were rigged to one another (press one, both explode). He mentioned to Batman how he was waiting for the fireworks (and something else that made me think he wanted both to explode). Also, nobody other than the people in the boats knew what had happened (remember they had no radio to communicate with one another or with shore).
So if the people on shore saw both of the boats explode, they would blame Joker, not knowing about the game.
I’ve only read the first few posts, since I plan to see this tonight, but I just came across this photo of Maggie Gyllenhaal and my first thought was, “Is this Carrie Fisher’s daughter”?
Okay, her Wikipedia entry confirms that she’s not, but my goodness that photo just screams “Princess Leia visits 21st century Earth”.)
That does make sense when you tie it all together, I just don’t remember hearing it directly implied at the conclusion. Was this suggested by Batman to Gordon as an explanation before he began to flee from the police?
Maggie’s definitely got a great figure, but WHAT is with the droopy look? Kind of a butterface … shame.
That’s exactly why I don’t think he’d blow up both boats if one tried to blow up the other, because then nobody would know the outcome of his “social experiment.” Remember what he said in the interrogation room?
It’s like the plot of The Killing Joke: he doesn’t just want to kill them, he wants to prove to Batman and to the world what inhumanities they’re capable of in a dilemna, that there’s no difference between them and him. If he blows up both boats, nobody knows.
Why didn’t Joker’s ferry bomb work? I knew the boat people didn’t use their detonators; but Joker also tried his after the deadline and it didn’t work. Did Batman disarm them… or did Joker’s henchmen “failed” to arm the bombs* (Batman kind of alluded to this “Not everyone is as twisted as you” or some such).
Or am I misremembering the scene and Joker didn’t actually push his own detonator?
IIRC, Batman pulled away the detonator (or knocked it or whatever) before Joker had a chance to press it.
Joker was just about to detonate it when Batman fired off his fragmenting bracers, barely missing the Joker, but succeeding in gaining the advantage and sending him over the edge where Joker presumably dropped the detonator.
Liked the movie a lot, though it had it’s flaws. The Joker might be the coolest character I have ever seen in an action movie. Sentimentality or not, it’s Oscar worthy in my book.
Good god, I fucking loathe Maggie Gyllenhaal. What an utter troll, and to anamnesis you seriously are mistaken about the great figure. You must have missed the abortion that was her short stint as the Agent Provocateur model. The comparison to Kirsten Dunst is remarkably apt, she almost singlehandedly ruined the Spiderman movies and did everything possible to desexify the hero’s love interest. What a turd.
I really think the director made a mistake in attempting to work in the Two Face arc in at the end of the film. The movie would have had an excellent ending had they stopped it when the Joker was dangling upside down and captured. The dialogue between him and Batman was profound and descriptive, and they could have easily crafted it as the conclusion. If they absolutely had to make Batman into a villain or a fugitive his actions in attacking all the SWAT guy could have served just as well. All in all, the transition of Harvey Dent into a cold-blooded killer didn’t work. I can see him as being vengeful and I can see The Joker’s little talk getting inside his head, but not as quickly as it was portrayed. Dent’s fall and anger, especially if his scarring left him shunned by his previous peers, could have been more believable and impactful if they’d saved it for the next movie.
Additionally, had they cut out the Harvey Dent/Gordon’s Family scene at the end they could have invested more time into setting up the boat sequence and explaining the Joker’s twisted “social experiment” and how he and Batman conflicted in their ideals. Cutting that scene would have allowed them a chance to pace the whole movie better.
I thought they did a bad job of showing the scene where the Joker lied to Batman about the locations of Rachel and Dent. I was surprised when Batman showed up to rescue Dent because I thought he said he was going to save Rachel but I just assumed that I misheard his gruff Bat-voice. I didn’t connect that it was part of Joker’s mind-fuck until reading this thread. They could have taken a second to have Batman and Gordon more clearly explain where they were going and they could have shown Batman being more shocked (and then horrified by the understanding) by discovering Dent instead.
They did a bad job of explaining what Scarecrow was doing at the beginning of the movie and what the implication of the Cobybats was. After having this discussion with you people I can see how it worked, but as I sat there I was a little confused by it. All in all, the average moviegoer isn’t going to be on the interwebs getting the proper clarity and it’s going to hurt the overall perception of the movie.
I dislike that they essentially disregarded the entire plotline from the end of Batman Begins where some of Scarecrow’s crazy gas was unleashed on the interior island of Gotham. The implication from that was that an entire breed of criminal would be spawned from it and that that entire area of the city would be lost to the insane criminal element. That was completely glossed over in this one.
I found it strange that Lucius Fox was so put-off by the cell phone surveillance device. He was a military contractor and built all manner of devices to create death and destruction, but he was somehow rattled by the fact that Batman would have access to spying equipment? Weak. Vigilante justice is OK, eavesdropping isn’t? That’s some strange manner of morality at work there.
There are a lot of things that I loved about this movie and I’ll be seeing it again and eventually buying the DVD, but it’s a little frustrating the the script and direction was so close to being perfect but they got greedy.