The movie starts out with a perfectly planned and executed heist of a bank by the Joker. He sets up a mobster to death by pencil. He sets up another mobster to death via Trojan horse.
Later escapades could be explained as being organised by someone higher up (in the mafia or the Legion of Shadows if they’re involved), but even that seems unlikely. Most likely the attack on Dent leading up to getting incarcerated with the Chinese dude and the escape via cellphone bomb were all planned by him as well as corrupting Dent and setting up the reversed hostages situation at the one building.
Overall I’d find it terribly unlikely that he wasn’t lying to Dent when he said that he’s a man without a plan and an anti-schemer. He sells himself to the mafia at the beginning of the movie as a schemer.
I don’t recall exactly, but I’m pretty certain that Batman tackles Dent from the side while he’s still holding the boy. In the following struggle they go over the edge on accident.
While I’m sure Michael Caine does little things like that, Alfred’s history with the SAS has been used in the comics and cartoon series’ for a long time. He didn’t make it up.
Just saw it…it looks like this is an open-spoiler thread, so my and Mrs G’s thoughts:
Loved everything except the pacing, so many standoffs and racing to crises that it seemed like a superhero scavenger hunt. We felt that the whole “ferry passenger standoff” subplot was superfluous at this point, it was just one more cliffhanger and race against time that we had grown weary from.
Our “edit” version: We would have loved for that whole ferry staging to be cut, and for the Joker’s story to have finished at the police jail. Harvey Dent would have been better with a short appearance and an escape, disappearing into sequel-land, than with the ultra-condensed origin-rise-death arc that was given.
Yeah. The Joker does what he does in part to demonstrate what people are capable of under pressure, what ethical rules they will break to save themselves. In the interrogation room he taunts Batman that the same people who lionize him will throw him to the wolves to protect themselves, and the worst part of it that Batman knows he’s right, because that’s exactly what they did. He also forces Batman and Fox to break the rules to catch him, and Batman to question whether his rule against killing is more destructive than benevolent. The ferry scene shows us that in at least that one instance, the Joker was wrong about humanity.
I agree. It isn’t like Batman threw him off the ledge. He hit Dent hard in order to get him away from Jim Jr. Batman fell as well. Obviously his armor absorbed much of his impact.
If I were betting, I’d go with the above. Why would Joker forgo any of the possible carnage?
Also, I know it was never mentioned, but hangning five deaths on Batman increases his ability to intimidage criminals. We’ve talked about his morality weakening his effectiveness. This would let him have it both ways. He gets credit for the deaths without killing anyone. That would have been a darker decision than “we have to keep people’s spirits up by keeping Harvey’s rep clean,” but that could have been an underlying motive for Batman suggesting that he should take the blame.
Do you think the new rep will free him from the wanabees? Or will it just change the type of wannabees out there? 'Cause if he never has to see another regular joe dressed up as Batman, that could be the strongest motive, right there.
Oh, puh-leeze. It’s entirely possible that Caine independently developed more or less the same backstory for Alfred as the one that’s occasionally shown up in the comics – “used to be in the British special forces” is a fairly straightforward explanation for Alfred’s ability to deal with being Batman’s batman.
I think Joker was telling the truth about saving one boat by about blowing up the other, because of the point he was trying to make. If he lets both boats blow up if one tries to blow up the other, people won’t know that one group murdered the other to save themselves, which is what he wants. The public won’t know that one boat blew up the other, they’ll just think he capriciously blew them both up. If he lets the killer boat go free, he’s made his point.
Loved the movie, thought it was just fantastic, but I just read a review that mentioned a pretty significant plot hole that I didn’t notice while watching the movie:
“At one point, the Joker invades a lavish party in Bruce Wayne’s penthouse apartment, but after Batman leaps out a window to rescue a plummeting dinner guest, the entire scene is dropped, as if the filmmakers had forgotten that a homicidal madman is still up in the apartment with a multitude of helpless partygoers…”
Because the emotional carnage would be even better.
I mean, why did he set it up so that Batman could rescue Harvey or Rachel? Why not kill both? Because killing one and leaving the other feeling to deal with the emotional fallout was even crueler.
Same thing with the boats.
One interesting thing about that situation is that Gordon’s decision to take the prisoners out on the first ferry actually undercut the Joker’s game, and made the ultimate outcome that much more effective. The Joker must have expected the ferries to both be full of regular civilians, making the choice that much harder to make. With one boat full of convicts, you’ve got a powerful argument for the passengers of one boat to pull the trigger, and if the passengers of the other boat pull the trigger, he hasn’t really proven much of anything. And, of course, that makes the final outcome an even more powerful denunciation of the Joker’s philosophy.
davidw: I figured the Joker, realizing that Dent wasn’t at the party, just took off. No doubt, Batman went back up there to check, but there isn’t much of a point to a scene of Batman showing up, saying, “Everything cool here?” and then leaving again. They probably should have included a scene of the Joker taking off, just to establish that this is what happened, but I wouldn’t really call it a plot hole.
Now, when you’re evacuating a city menaced by a psychotic bomber, and you don’t check the hold of the only two ferries in the city for explosives before you pack them full of people and send them out into the middle of a river? That’s a plot hole. But forgivable, because it led to such an awesome scene.
I thought he left because the cops were on their way fast – remember these are very rich people Joker could pitch out the window. I also assumed that Bruce came back from his “panic room” to make sure everything was OK.
I agree. If all he wanted was a body count, he could just blow up both boats without even presenting them with their prisoner’s dilemna, no possibility anyone saving anybody. He wanted to torment them psychologically, make one boat kill the other, and prove a point to the world.
I love little touches in a movie that might not even be noticed, but that fit the character. With the Joker I noticed two:
The 18-wheel truck he’s using belongs to a circus; on the side it says “LAUGHTER IS THE BEST MEDICINE.” The Joker has spray-painted an S in front of “LAUGHTER”.
When the motorcade is diverted by a burning obstacle, it could have been any large object. But what did the Joker choose to set on fire? A firetruck.
Actually, the cops weren’t “showing up fast”, they were already there . Don’t forget that when The Joker and his henchmen come up the elevator, the first person out is the corrupt Officer Wuertz. With all of the Joker’s henchmen incapacitated, their various weapons scattered around the floor for anyone to pick up, and one police officer who probably doesn’t want the world to know that he’s bought already at the party, what else could The Joker do but leave?
There is no doubt that The Joker lied to Batman about the whereabouts of Harvey and Rachel. When Batman is running to the BatPod, Gordon asks him who he’s going after. Batman tells him he’s going for Rachel, then leaves. Gordon is left to scream after him that they’re gonna get Harvey, then yells at his officers to get over to 250 52nd Street ASAP.
If Batman had simply changed his mind, he would’ve ended up at the same place as Gordon.
Also, let me be the first to point out that the word “CopyBat” should be in the next Oxford English Dictionary. I wish I’d thought of it.
Thank you! English is not my first language, and sometimes I don’t understand the dialogue (despite years of living on mainland US). Heck, half of what Alfred said was lost on me…
I understood that Harvey worked in Internal Affairs, but didn’t get the cop who persecuted cops…
