The Dark Knight: unqualified masterpiece

Cafe Society
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[QUOTE=kingpengvin]
I loved it. I liked Ledgers interpretation of the Joker. I will never say that is the definitive Joker, because in the comics the guy is so damned looney he changes too much to be nailed down, but it is a damned scary version.

I never caught that the Joker gave the wrong address. I seriously thought that Batman made a concious choice based on what he thought was right for Gotham and not for himself. If it was a misdirection then A) Joker is more methodical and well planned than he leads one to believe and B) Batman is not as self sacrificing as he says he is.

As for the two detonators on the Ferry. During the scene I suspected that each detonator was actually for theferry it was on.

After the movie I thought about it again and decided against that because if it were true, The Ferry that survived would have been rewarded for not choosing to kill the others. That would go against the whle Joker chaos theory. I think he was not lying about the detonators and hoped that the civilized folk would kill the prisoners.

Thought killing two face was a bad idea and correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t Batman kill him? I may have missed something but it appears that he threw Harvey off the building. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong because the idea that he would spare Joker for his code and then Kill Harvey a few minutes later strikes me as terrible.
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I think he was saving the kid more than trying to kill Harvey. Harvey just sort of became collateral damage.
The only problem I had with the movie was the International sub-plot. They didn’t need that trip to China for the movie to work.

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[QUOTE=Happy Lendervedder]
The only problem I had with the movie was the International sub-plot. They didn’t need that trip to China for the movie to work.
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Which is why I think the director included that bit to make a point or two about the war on terror. Otherwise, you’re right. It’s superfluous.

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I agree, I think that’s a nod to Extraordinary Rendition.

Remember in the beginning of the movie how stupid and clunky the Batsuit looked? Did you also notice the lack of Bat-Spray (despite its easy dispensation from a wrist apparatus, used frequently in both movies), something that left him terribly vulnerable to doggies?

He’s trying to work out the kinks to this whole Bat-Thing, as it were. Including his Bat-Morality.

Is the flick a treatise on the current situation in the world? Maybe, but why does it have to be limited to that? For me one theme is “chaos makes ordinary men break their own inner rules.” This movie is more about a man’s morality and the amorality of Absolute Power.

One thing I need to add: The Joker is truly beautiful.

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[QUOTE=KarlGrenze]

Also, I thought that it was implied (after Harvey became Two-Faced), and based on whom he went after, that Harvey was known to had been corrupt/known too much more than someone with a clean record. He knew about the cops working with the mobsters (and with whom in particular), for example.

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Before he became DA he was in Internal Affairs with the GCPD (dialog with Gordon when Dent want to meet Batman). The part of the police force that investigates officers to make sure they are not on the take. He was a cop who investigated other cops - hence the name the other cops called him Two Face Harvey Dent.

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Saw it Saturday. Pretty good, and better than Batman Begins, but too long and at times pretty confusing.

Great opening scene with the bank heist.

Heath Ledger was excellent and repellent. Christian Bale was good but understated; he couldn’t help but be overshadowed by Ledger, I’m afraid. The supporting cast was excellent, as always. Fourthed for an Alfred: The SAS Years prequel.

Nice to see Chicago shown to advantage, but it was too light and open. I preferred Tim Burton’s vision of Gotham as dark, dangerous, overcrowded and overbuilt.

Nolan played with our expectations quite well. A Russian (the ballerina) praises democracy and the rule of law? A hardened criminal (the big guy on the ferry) makes the ethical, moral decision? Genius.

The mayor was definitely - and distractingly - wearing eyeliner, esp. in the scenes in his office. Aha! It is Batmanuel! Bruce Wayne isn’t the only guy with a secret identity.

spoke-, I agree with your analogy of Batman to Bush and the War on Terror. I think the movie had a more ambiguous message than that, though.

Good to see Pat Leahy at the Dent fundraiser. My wife’s from Vermont, and I recognized the senator right away.

The Hong Kong trip could’ve been cut.

Great scene with Dent disarming the Mob witness and wanting to go on with his cross-examination.

The hostage-rescue scene (with some of them dressed like Joker’s thugs but bound and with their mouths taped shut) was very confusing. It was hard to understand where everyone - SWAT team, hostages, Joker, Batman - was, and what was going on.

Getting fingerprints from a shattered bullet buried in a wall was 'way cool. I always like it when Batman actually gets the chance to be a detective.

I’m in the tiny minority who actually preferred Katie Holmes to Maggie G. Heresy, I know, but I think they’re both pretty much equally-skilled actresses, and Katie’s a lot cuter. Maggie just looked worn and haggard must of the time (in the outtakes, a knife held to her throat, I hope she whispered to Ledger, “Weren’t you a gay cowboy once, like my brother?”).

I didn’t buy Harvey Dent’s near-instantaneous slide into madness and evil. As angry as he was with Joker, he would’ve shot him without bothering to flip a coin. And his post-burn makeup looked like it was left over from The Mummy. I agree that he’s not necessarily dead yet.

I also didn’t buy Batman insisting that Gordon blame him at the end for Two-Face’s crimes. Blame Joker! Blame someone else! It’s not necessary that Batman be seen as an out-and-out villain and a killer by Gothamites, and anyway it’ll badly hurt his effectiveness in crimefighting.

A question: why were those prisoners put on the ferry anyway, and how did that boatful of civilians deserve a ride when so many other people seemed to be marooned ashore?

I have to say, for superhero movies this summer I enjoyed Iron Man and even Hancock more. Apples and oranges, I know.

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I’ve got $10 that says it is not eye-liner or any other kind of makeup. :smiley:

Surely this can be settled by a reporter with their finger on the pulse of popular curiosity while doing an interview or something…

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[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]

A question: why were those prisoners put on the ferry anyway, and how did that boatful of civilians deserve a ride when so many other people seemed to be marooned ashore?
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Gordon was sure the prisoners were part of the Joker’s plan for Gotham, and he wanted them out of Gotham as quickly as possible.

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Are we still spoliering? A couple of the legal aspects bugged me mildly. Admittedly it’s silly to point out inaccuracies of a movie about a billionaire in a batsuit who beats up criminals, but truth in the small things make the big lie easier to swallow. In the first courtroom scene:

[spoiler]Dent and Rachel are sitting on the wrong side. Prosecutors get to sit on the side closest to the jury, and they were on the far side of the jury. It was necessary for the flow of the scene because Harvey needed to be able to immediately turn around to the defendant after the witness tried to shoot him, but if you deal with courtrooms a lot it’s really glaring and takes you out of the movie.

Another one went by so fast I’m not sure if I heard it right. Gordon wanted Dent to get him some warrants, but couldn’t give him specifics because he wasn’t sure if he could trust him? What’s Dent going to tell the judge? How are they going to hold up in court with no specificity?[/spoiler]

Still, mild criticisms of a fantastic movie.

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On another part of the interweb, I saw Angelina Jolie suggested to play Catwoman. What do you guys think of that idea?

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Let me first say that Heath Ledger’s performance was incredible…his Joker was on a par with Anthony Hopkin’s Hannibal Lechter from Silence of the Lambs. But that said, I found that I didn’t enjoy this movie as much as Batman Begins. It wasn’t just darker, it was a constant drumbeat of depression and by the end of the movie, I was thinking “This movie is very well made, but why the hell would I ever want to watch this again?”
I don’t mind a bit of darkness, but I think Nolan went overboard, and that nonsensical bit in the end about blaming Harvey’s murders on Batman was the final nail.

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[QUOTE=pravnik]

Still, mild criticisms of a fantastic movie.
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Not to mention, a witness pulls a gun in court and the prosecutor disarms him in front of the jury? Holy mistrial, Batman!

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[QUOTE=ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies]
I’ve got $10 that says it is not eye-liner or any other kind of makeup. :smiley:
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No weaseling, now. It could be tattooed eyeliner. Does that count? :stuck_out_tongue:

There was definitely some sort of eyeliner thing going on, either temporary or permanent.

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[QUOTE=Hello Again]
Not to mention, a witness pulls a gun in court and the prosecutor disarms him in front of the jury? Holy mistrial, Batman!
[/QUOTE]
Well, they did say he was a hostile witness. :smiley:

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[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
I’m in the tiny minority who actually preferred Katie Holmes to Maggie G. Heresy, I know, but I think they’re both pretty much equally-skilled actresses, and Katie’s a lot cuter. Maggie just looked worn and haggard must of the time (in the outtakes, a knife held to her throat, I hope she whispered to Ledger, “Weren’t you a gay cowboy once, like my brother?”).
[/QUOTE]

I preferred Katie Holmes, too. In fact, I completely forgot who played Rachel three years ago and was thinking she looked pretty old now. Then I remembered it was Katie Holmes before. :smack:

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Mrs. Urquhart and I beat the heat yesterday by taking in a double feature of The Dark Knight and Hellboy II: The Golden Army.

A couple of things I noticed in The Dark Knight that haven’t yet been mentioned:
The fellow who played the gangster Gambol looked familiar; turns out he’s Michael Jai White, who played the titular character in 1997’s Spawn and, I just discovered by reviewing his IMDB page, has done voice work for animated DC projects.

Can any Windy City residents confirm that the bar in which Two Face shot the first corrupt Gotham City cop is Miller’s Pub? Mrs. Urquhart and I spent several sought shelter from wind, cold, and general weather-related unpleasantness several times at Miller’s Pub during a visit to Chicago last March (and it was a great opportunity for me to try smelt).

Another note – I think it’s great that “a comic-book movie” has generated some of the thoughtful discussion and dissection in this thread.

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[QUOTE=jackdavinci]
But then I saw the credits and it really was Cillian Murphy. I can’t recall what his final status was at the end of Batman Begins. Can anyone remind me?
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When we last saw Scarecrow, he had ridden up to Rachel and the scared boy on a horse, only to be “tased” by Rachel. He rides away and that’s the last we see of him in BB.

[QUOTE=Elendil’s Heir]
I didn’t buy Harvey Dent’s near-instantaneous slide into madness and evil. As angry as he was with Joker, he would’ve shot him without bothering to flip a coin. And his post-burn makeup looked like it was left over from The Mummy. I agree that he’s not necessarily dead yet.

I also didn’t buy Batman insisting that Gordon blame him at the end for Two-Face’s crimes. Blame Joker! Blame someone else! It’s not necessary that Batman be seen as an out-and-out villain and a killer by Gothamites, and anyway it’ll badly hurt his effectiveness in crimefighting.
[/QUOTE]

My thoughts exactly. It’s one thing for Batman to be considered some vigilante nut by the police; it’s quite another to blame him for 5 murders. And if Harvey was so easily swayed, maybe he wasn’t the “best of the best” that everyone made him out to be. Wouldn’t it be just as easy for the citizens of Gotham to rally around the Batman?

I truly enjoyed DK as I was watching it, but I hated the ending so much that it set me to deconstructing the rest of the film. Each step of that deconstruction pointed up another flaw in the movie.

Heath Ledger was brilliant. The best characterization of the Joker ever! The problem is, he’s so strong and powerful a character that any scene without him comes across as positively anemic. And his best moments were his close-up encounters. Problem #2: his last scene with Batman was too “open”; it should have been as face-to-face as his other scenes.

The story at times was hard to follow; or at least the story’s focus was. It just felt like so much effort was expended on the Joker’s storyline that the rest of the script suffered for it.

All in all, I felt that BB was a much better film with a much more cohesive story.

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[QUOTE=want2know]
My thoughts exactly. It’s one thing for Batman to be considered some vigilante nut by the police; it’s quite another to blame him for 5 murders. And if Harvey was so easily swayed, maybe he wasn’t the “best of the best” that everyone made him out to be. Wouldn’t it be just as easy for the citizens of Gotham to rally around the Batman?
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I suspect it meshes with what they already have in mind for the script of the next sequel.

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Good movie, but I’m still not sure if I want to call it great. I do think I want to see it again during it’s theater run though. As most agree, Ledger was awesome.

There are a lot of conflicting opinions here on various parts of the movie. My take on a few things:

Joker lied about who was where. Batman was trying to save Rachel.

Speaking of Rachel, I didn’t like Katie Holmes that much in Batman Begins, but I wish they would have stuck with her.

Fox is staying with the company. He said he would use the grid once, but if it was still around afterwards, he would walk. Bruce told him how to destroy it.

Regarding the boats, try this one. The detonators were on the same frequency. Both would have blown together. Joker was expecting this to happen. When it didn’t, he was going to blow both with one radio. Granted, the radio could have multiple frequencies, but blowing both together fits nicely.

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Man, that movie was great. Might be one of my favorite films of all time. It was a real movie that happened to be about superheroes. I saw it Friday, & it keeps improving in my mind. (Watched Begins on Sunday, and it does not hold up well).

Count me firmly in the Maggie over Mrs. Cruise camp. She was bad in the first film, and would have been COMPLETELY out classed in this installment. With the inclusion of Maggie G., there were NO weak notes in this cast (possible exception was Anthony Michael Hall. He was oddly out of place.)

But this film was so good it actually makes it harder for other superhero films to NOT look silly by comparison. I imagine the guys at Marvel felt like the Beach Boys the first time they listened to Sgt. Pepper’s. The escalating war of quality films between the two houses has gone to a new level with this one.

A few random thoughts:

  • I liked the Bond/Indy format of giving some action early and then easing into the story.

  • For me, this film did for the Joker what X-Men did for Wolverine. I finally got the appeal. I always thought the Joker was kind of stupid. Everyone seemed afraid of him because the writers had the characters say they were afraid. I never got why Joker was “the bad guy that scared the other bad guys.” This movie put it in perspective. There was no better example of his mania in the film than when Two-Face put a gun to his head and determined his fate based on a coin flip. His even response, “Now we’re getting somewhere.” Brilliant.

  • Usually technical snafus at theaters bother me. This time it actually added to the enjoyment. Almost immediately after Joker blew up the hospital, the theater’s fire alarm sounded and the house lights went up. (It was so eerily timed that I thought it might be planned as part of the film somehow.)
    The fear of being in a burning building, coupled with the anxiety of this intense movie, made for some sweaty palms. The manager quickly announced a false alarm and said the film would resume at the proper spot in a few minutes. I treated this as a much needed intermission instead of an annoyance and hit the restroom.

  • Oddly, couldn’t they have ended the film with Joker blowing up the hospital, walking away, and leaving Dent to be the next villian? There was much talk up thread about the length of the film. That would have been a real “Empire Strikes Back” ending. Joker walking away in a nurse’s dress with hospital exploding. Gotham City in shambles.

  • Alfred’s backstory was apparently crafted by Michael Caine himself. I read an interview where he said he likes to design little backstories for his characters and his version of Alfred was that he was once SAS, but got injured on a mission. To stay with his elite unit, he learned to cook and manage the domestic staff to serve as their butler. Kind of cool to see it in the story. It really did provide some powerful moments. “We burned the jungle down.”

  • If Joker appears in the next film, I am guessing he will simply be shown from the back, in a cell at Arkham, hearing a loop of Ledger’s maniacal laughter.

  • Is Batman Bush apologia? I don’t think so. I do think it is a commentary that a character like Batman is, at many levels, a fascist reaction to crime. I thought no conclusion was reached, but I did note the parallels.

  • The Batman voice was fine by me, but I would have included a complete voice modulation (from a device said to be in the suit) to make him sound like a true monster.

  • Academy Award predictions? Sure fire noms to Ledger (even without his death, he would have had a great shot) and Best Score. The music in that film was practically a character itself. That was true horror music. It added so much to the anxiety of the film. I’d like to see a Best Picture nod, and a nod for Nolan for director and maybe adapted screenplay. Echkart would also be worthy, but Hollywood wouldn’t dare give “silly” Batman TWO acting nods.

  • The Watchmen preview was beautiful. To gauge a theory, I had my wife watch it online, and I got a blank stare. That preview was aimed SOLELY to get diehard fans of the series onboard early. Mission accomplished. Seeing the watch mechanics on Mars lets me know Snyder is trying to adapt the comic. Looks bizarre. Before, I thought the film would be a hit, but not faithful. Now I think the exact opposite. It will be a great adaptation, but a bomb at the box office. At least there would be no talk of a sequel! :slight_smile:

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One more thing. They should have had Bruce Wayne in disguise in Hong Kong. I was hoping for an appearance of “Matches Malone!”