It is far from tenuous. The rose in question is maybe the most important object in the Dark Tower universe. By mentioning it in IT, King has included the IT world into the Dark Tower universe. That’s all the bolded title in the front of DT:VII means. Nothing more, nothing less. Some connected books have just a few things in common, others have entire characters placed in Roland’s path.
Or are you trying to suggest that King was mistaken in linking IT with a series you haven’t read?
But he didn’t mention it. That rose appears nowhere in IT. Someone merely thinking that it might exist in another universe doesn’t qualify - particularly when in The Dark Tower it doesn’t exist in another universe, it exists in this one (or Kingverse Prime, if you like).
Don’t patronise me. I said I’ve read four of them, including ones with the rose in, just not the two where the rose is significant.
I also wouldn’t use the word “mistaken”. I’d use “unjustified”.
That’s ridiculous. Aside from the rose, which is big, you haven’t read the final 2 books, in which the spider in IT seems closely related to Mordred and The Crimson King. In fact, I’m starting to wonder if there’s a race of those giant evil spiders, or if IT wasn’t the Crimson King or something. There is definitely a connection.
You’re flailing here, Evil Death. We have several posters who have read the entire series, all who are saying it’s a connection on various points of fact (the rose, the clown, the spider). Then we have you, who hasn’t read the entire series, saying it’s not. It just seems that you’re desperately hanging onto an invalid argument.
Don’t forget the turtle, who is mentioned as a force of good working against IT. The turtle figures prominently in The Dark Tower.
In Bev Vincent’s book there’s a chapter on Related Works. Bev says DT-It connection is tenuous, with the strongest link being the wallpaper. This chapter is about 20 pages long, and It is mentioned in just two paragraphs.
Does that help?
King is appearing on The Daily Show tonight (12/2). Just a heads up. I expect he’s promoting the baseball book?
If you’re looking for some sort of interaction later in the series, no. In regards to Thomas, anyway. Flagg does show up in the series, first in book 4, Wizard & Glass. He’s also rather prominent in the books towards the end of the series, particularly book 7, The Dark Tower.
First off, I don’t see any clown connection mentioned anywhere in this thread. Give me a post number?
Rubystreak has been musing if the Crimson King wasn’t in fact It. However, in Insomnia the omniscient narrator describes the late It as “the real Kingfish in Derry”, in the process making it clear that It was not the Crimson King. I also thought it was fairly clear from Insomnia that the Crimson King has an entirely different set of powers and motivations.
It’s a connection at one remove, but connections like that don’t normally seem to get bolded. (And if Mordred is not explicitly or directly implied to be a relation of It, it’s not relevant that they seem similar. The Dead Zone and Firestarter both include psychic powers that cause brain damage, but that doesn’t make them related.)
Now, if the Turtle appears in the Dark Tower - outside that poem, anyway, that doesn’t seem to refer to the Turtle who created the universe - then that is a definite and direct connection, but if it does, why is it that people haven’t brought it up previously instead of nodding sagely and saying “Ah, yes, the rose” when the rose is the most incredibly contrived and tenuous connection so far mentioned?
(Minor pedant here, also - the Turtle didn’t work against It, but only watched and occasionally advised. The power that worked against It is the unnamed power that speaks to Bill Denbrough after he kills It.)
Sorry, I was confusing that with the wallpaper. I seem to remember the wallpaper in Wastelands as having clowns on them, and connected the two.
No, Rubystreak has been musing that there’s big similiarity between the Crimson King’s offspring and It.
Sorry, but comparing vague psychic powers that appear in every other half-assed horror novel to a big giant sentient spider that eats/terrifies people is a bit contrived. If the same author creates a big giant sentient spider creature that eats/terrifies people in two different books, I’d have to draw a connection, rather than just casually dismiss. Especially when the author himself has labelled the two books as connected into a megaverse that the author has intended to encompass his life’s work.
“Definite and direct”? When did anyone place that restriction on this discussion? Stop backpedalling.
To someone who has read the whole series, this statement is hilarious. It’s like reading *Moby Dick * and casually dismissing the ocean.
I also mused that there might be a race of evil, shapeshifting spiders, because Mordred, the Crimson King, and IT are all on that continuum somewhere. Is that alone enough for it to be bolded? Probably not.
The turtle didn’t exactly create the world. The Keystone Earth (I don’t want to explain what that is, just read the books) rests on the Turtle’s back. He’s the guardian of the beam and a powerful source of good in both books.
I don’t think that’s entirely accurate. The Turtle is a force for good, but good tends not to meddle as much as evil does. The Turtle is not God; the Beams, theire guardians, and the Tower were created by forces more powerful and largely unidentified.
The Turtle did create the universe, and it doesn’t meddle at all. From IT (p1034, NEL p/b edition):
The book then goes on to say that there is some Other that was the author of everything, and that invested the Turtle with its power. This is the other that speaks to Bill after he kills It (p1074, same edition).
In Dark Tower, the Turtle didn’t create the universe and it does have ways of getting involved. There’s a little figurine… I’ll say no more. You’re referring to IT, I’m referring to DT, so neither of us is wrong, but it’s hard to have this conversation with someone who hasn’t read DT, because you keep telling people they’re wrong when you don’t have all the information.
I’m not telling you you’re wrong. I’m arguing that IT isn’t connected to DT - something with which you appear to be in agreement, because you’re saying that the Turtle in IT is not the same as the Turtle in DT. After all, if Mid-World is contained within a single molecule of a blade of grass in our world, that means the Turtle in IT would have created Mid-World if it were the same Turtle.
That said, according to Auntie Pam the author of the DT concordance asserts that the closest connection between the DT and IT is that both contain wallpaper with elves on. So, someone who has not only read the full series but has done so exhaustively agrees with me.
I think the moral is that we’d all be better off if King hadn’t tried linking every goddamn book he could together. It never works very well (cf Asimov, Gemmell).
[QUOTE=Evil Death]
I’m gonna try one more time, but given that you haven’t read books 6 and 7, it may be pointless to try to convince you.
The singing rose is one of the two most important items ALL of King’s universes. Period. Without a doubt. None. It’s at least the equal of the Dark Tower in importance to the entire structure of the multiverse.
If you’re trying to say that Stan, while involved in affairs of the Beam (The Turtle–who’s the protector of children is also the guardian of the Beam) just happens to mention one of the two most important objects that could possibly be connected with The Turtle and the Beam and it’s merely a coincindence that of all the things he could possibly use to describe magic he just happens to pick one of the two key items in Roland’s quest ludicrous. It’s like saying… “Well, those kids had balls, bats, catcher’s masks and bases and were talking about home runs, outs, and fly balls…but they might not have been talking about baseball. It coulda been something else.”
One more point to note–the kids get thrown into the Deadlights–which also appear in Insomnia and IIRC there’s some description staring into or being around Black 13 (in Wolves maybe?) that very closely echos a description of being in The Deadlights.
(And you keep talking about this “contained in one molecule of grass” thing. Where are you getting that from? It’s certainly completely contradicted by what happens in Song of Susannah and Dark Tower.)
I am not in agreement that they aren’t connected. I think the connection is tenuous but that they definitely occur in the same universe. The Turtle is the same Turtle, but he’s represented differently in each book. Remember how far apart they were written; I’m sure King defined him differently in later books. Probably got the idea of the Turtle from IT in the first place, though that’s just speculation on my part. The rose indicates a connection as well.
Here’s an idea, but it’s a spoiler for the end of the book, so you might not want to read it…
Stephen King wrote IT but is also a pivotal character in the DT books. Maybe King, the character, wrote IT the novel with references to the “real life” stuff of the DT? This is a shot in the dark, obviously. Does anyone understand what I’m saying?
Was the concordance written after the end of DT, or during the series? Because the spider and turtle stuff is concentrated at the end of the series. That could account for the lack of evidence presented in the Concordance.
Meh. I don’t mind the connections. In fact, I kinda like them, and I think there’s one here. I’m not sure why you’re so adamant about there not being one.
On this, we can all come together in perfect harmony! 
Bev’s book was published in October 2004, and includes full summaries (is that an oxymoron?) of all seven books.
I could quote the full two paragraphs, but I should probably get Bev’s permission first. (He mentions the wallpaper, the Crimson King and Pennywise, shape-changing and deadlights, but briefly.)
Has anyone looked in the Stephen King Encyclopedia for discussion of the rose and the turtle? I’d be glad to, but I worry about violating copyright if I start quoting stuff.
Evil Death - I’m the one who was speculating that It and the Crimson King could be the same entity, but I’ll admit freely that it was nothing more than a vague suspicion on my part. If I really dive into the books, I might find enough in the text to support it, but it’s a long shot at best. And as I’m reading through It, I find my mind is changing anyway. It spends too much time in Derry to be the Crimson King - he is busy elsewhere. That doesn’t preclude It being one of his agents, though.
To me, what really connects It to the Dark Tower books is Insomnia. If you haven’t read that one, Evil Death, I’d recommend it. It takes place in Derry, post-It, and the Dark Tower references are all over. I think it’s possible that King himself wasn’t sure that It connected to the Dark Tower books at first, that he maybe didn’t realize it until he wrote Insomnia and placed it in Derry. But that’s just my WAG.
A question for those who’ve read the whole thing:
There were two beams being held up at the last - Maturin the turtle, and Shardik the bear. To help save one, they had to protect the rose. To save the other, they had to protect Stephen King. Which one went with which? Are the rose and the turtle of the same beam, or not? I don’t have the book, so I can’t look it up myself.
Then fuck King and his series with a splintered broomstick, because I’m quoting him verbatim from his afterword to The Gunslinger: