The Death Penalty brings closure to the crime and allows the survivors a chance to try to go on with life however fragile that might be.
Sun you misunderstand - when we here ask you to substantiate your post by saying “prove it” or “cite”, we’re not asking that you restate your assertions. we figure you’re able to do that. So, instead of posting “I talked to so and so and they said this”, you’d need to link to some study or a cite where that person was quoted as saying that etc. Preferably, in this case, to a study.
Otherwise, I could merely post “I talked to God yesterday and He said you were full of shit”, and have it mean something… 
Re: rapists can still rape if they’re in prison. Yep, that’s abolutely true. and I do know that there have been some cases where a prison guard was raped. Care to provide numbers, so we can see the relative risk? Care to provide data which proves that only those convicted of rape have raped prison guards? (Otherwise, you know, by the same rationale, we should execute everyone in prison)
You do understand, too, don’t you, that not all survivors of horrific crimes are in favor of the death penalty, right?? some do not find closure in the execution.
In the first instance my question far from being a stupid one is quite reasonable and secondly whether you have children or not is irrelevant, surely there must be someone close to you who is a child.
Emotionally distraught relatives!!! how else are they to feel for Christs sake? overjoyed???
Personal desire!, right let’s look at that objectively. The personal desire of every right thinking parent would be to see the bastard who abused their child D-E-A-D and I am one of them.
I did not just waltz in as you so charmingly put it and nor did I imply that your beliefs were irrational, I asked a question, OK!?
These figures are, based on what i’ve been able to find on the internet, pretty much correct. But they still fail to address the issue of reformability.
Just because 70% of released criminals are back behind bars within five years does not mean that such a situation is inevitable. In fact, type “criminal recidivism rates” in Google, and you’ll come up with a bunch of websites and reports, many of which argue that the reason for high recidivism rates is not always the inherent evilness of the criminals, but often results from the inadequacy of the rehabilitation process in prisons.
For example, this guy spent three years in prison in his early 20s, and is now a Doctor of Psychology and a writer on prisoner rehabilitation. He argues that appropriate prisoner education and rehabilitation programs can serve to reduce recidivism rates. He also argues that “Not all criminals, even ‘convicted felons,’ are unredeemable psychopaths. The great majority are capable of changing.”
And it is here that the issue of prison guards comes into play. I agree that theirs is an important job. I also believe that they are grossly underpaid for performing it. And i also believe that this, along with other problems within the prison system, tends to make prison a much more horrific place than it should be, and helps increase recidivism rates. If we paid prison guards more, gave them better training, and encouraged them to see their jobs as being more than just armed guards, maybe fewer prisoners would come out of jail worse than when they went in.
Of course, some people argue that jail should be awful and demeaning, otherwise what’s the point. But such an attitude assumes that prisons exist only for punishment and not for rehabilitiation. It seems that some people are happier to have high recidivism rates, as long as the people in prison suffer as much as possible. Personally, i’d prefer a system that releases a person from prison who is actually prepared to re-enter society, and who intends to lead a law-abiding existence.
I certainly agree that there are some criminals who should never, ever be released. I’m sure that there are a considerable number of individuals who, and an individual basis, are unreformable psychopaths. But you have still failed to make the case that ALL rapists (or murderers, or whatever) fall into that category.
And, as long as the unreformable psychopaths are not returned to society, i see no need to kill them. Firstly, i’m against the death penalty anyway. And secondly, from a purely practical point of view, death penalty cases frequently cost the already-overburdened legal system more than life sentences, due to the endless appeals.
I never questioned your right to hold this belief. But holding this belief is not the same as proving that all such criminals are unreformable.
Well, many people, including some crime victims, feel that life imprisonment, without possibility for parole, also brings closure. And others, by contrast, believe that you can never get closure, even if the death penalty is carried out. It seems to me that whether or not a victim is able to go on with life will depend more on individual circumstances than on whether the criminal is executed.
Also, if you are arguing that only the death penalty “brings closure” and “allows the survivors a chance to try to go on with life,” then why don’t we execute all criminals? I mean, don’t ALL crime victims deserve closure and a chance to go on with life.
Well FriarTed that will definately fill up the court dockett will alot of murder trials don’t you think? I mean let the kin of the victim go to jail because he was seeking revenge. Not that this doesn’t happen anyway because it does.
In my personal experience. I have a daughter and got a notice that a child molester had just moved into my neighborhood. I found out that this person was living right across the street from me. Their front door was about 100 ft directly accross from mine. So when I happened to meet this individual I politely inquired about the circumstances as to why he was a child molester.
He told me he had sex with a 12 year old when he was 19. He was 22 at the time. I then made it perfectly clear that if I found him on my property or speaking to my daughter the coroner would be carrying his body off in a bag. He got the message. I’ve been victimized by crime on more than one occasion so I have no sympathy for the criminals.
In our town we had the “highland” rapist who would break into homes of women stick a sharpened screwdriver in their neck and then procede to rape and sodomize them. This animal attacked and raped two women within two houses of mine. One night I heard something at my back door so I got up to investigate.
What I found was a man with a screwdriver prying out the lock on my door. I undid the lock kicked the guy in the chest and sent him down a short flight of stairs. After that I put three 9mm rounds into the ground at his crotch and sent him running. I put 3 more rounds into the ground right behind him as he ran out of my back yard.
When the police arrived they asked me about what happened. They took my statement, examined my pistol and then gave it back to me. One of the detectives pulled me to the side and asked me why I didn’t shoot the guy outright. I told him that he wasn’t in my house so I thought it would be illegal to kill him in the yard. He told me that I was in my rights to shoot him if he was in any enclosed portion of my property including my back yard.
Its too bad I didn’t get the guy because he raped 4 other women before he was caught. He is serving 40 at angola now but he can get out after 20. I have asked about him while I was there and spoke with a guard who knows him. The guard told me that I should have shot the “fucking maggot bastard” when I had the chance.
You don’t quite get it, do you?
Firstly, i never said that the relatives of crime victims should not feel distraught, and i certainly never even implied that they should be overjoyed, despite your own attempt to attribute such a sentiment to me.
Secondly, i have already conceded that wanting to see the person who abused your child dead is a perfectly natural reaction. Did you not read the part where i said that is what my own reaction would be?
The point i am making is that the decisions about how to run a whole system of justice in a nation are bigger than any one person, and that those who are still suffering directly from the loss of a loved one are not those who should be making the decisions about appropriate levels of punishment.
We have a justice system that is, ideally at least, logical and impartial. And the reason we have such a system is that we, as a society, have moved past the stage where it is generally considered acceptable to act as a vigilante and conduct revenge killings. No matter how much we might feel like killing someone who has harmed a loved one, it is better for the sake of a civil society to let the due process of law and justice determine the punishment. Not only does an eye for an eye make the whole world blind, but it can also lead to further social decay and eventual anarchy.
I want to see sites for the idea that death brings closure, cause it sure as hell doesn’t for me. At least one of the victims of John Georhan, the defrocked catholic priest who was killed in jail, was devistated saying his attacker got off too easy.
I am not saying all criminals are unreformable. My barber is a convicted drug dealer and served his time. He now leads a productive life. Child molesters OTOH are not fit to be trusted in a free society. It would be nice to have some mark to warn people that this individual walking among us is a convicted child molester but it won’t happen. There is no way for you to identify a molester until its too late and another victim must suffer.
As to your recidivism rates. That is a generalization of the entire prison population not a specific rate for child molesters. Why have prison guards have to put up with these animals. How much money would you accept to watch these guys everyday knowing that they are trying to figure out how to put a knife in your back or get to your family?
How much money would it take for you? I’m guessing you would not have the stomach for it day in day out. Prison guards work 2 12 hour shifts then have two days off then work 3 12 hour shifts in the same heat and conditions as the inmates. They must maintain a constant state of awareness or wind up a bleeding pile on the floor. I’ve seen the effects this occupation has on people and its not a pretty picture.
Basically, the average prison guard has a very pessimistic view of the world because they have to associate with these dreggs of humanity. I challenge everyone here to go spend a few hours talking with someone in this profession sincerely about how they feel and you will begin to identify with a much different view point.
These discussions here while trying to seek the truth and eliminate ignorance cannot replace the normal interaction of one on one personal communication with the very people who are affected by these issues.
MHENDO: I do quite get it, I may be English but I sure am not stupid.
You have your beliefs and convictions and I have mine so let’s just agree to disagree before we get to the name calling stage.
Peace.
gosh, if only some one would look at and publish data on molester recidivism rates! Why, it would be excellent to get such data. I wonder where oh where such information could be had!
As an afterthought and having read this thread through, you do seem to be in a minority group…but…still…peace.
Well wring I nominate you for that tast how about?
Ok wring as far as providing numbers. Is 1 ok or would you prefer 2, 3 hmmm…4 possibly? My point is that if the bastard was dead then there would be 0 repeat offenses right? How many women must a sicko rape before he becomes a threat to society?
Oh and wring about speaking to God. I know you haven’t spoken with God because he asked me why he hasn’t heard from you lately. 
Oh he also said that using expletives to make your point is pointless.
FriarTed: You have some rather warped idea about what society’s justice is. We already have society’s justice for rapists. It’s called prison. Just because it doesn’t satiate your twisted, sick, and inhuman desire to mutilate, torture, rape, and/or kill someone does not mean that it’s not justice.
wring, we are just going to have to agree to disagree. You have not presented me with any evidence that pedophiles can be rehabilitated, either. I believe that any deep-seated notion is virtually impossible to dislodge from one’s psyche. Can a person who is heterosexual make himself gay, for example, simply by willing it or by any other means for that matter, or vice-versa?
mhendo, what I meant was that, regarding all of these costly appeals that are de rigeur for the convicted criminal, they seem to me just a lot of fluff, when a jury has already said that he was guilty. How many juries in a case like this does one need to finally convince someone of a person’s guilt? It just sounds like a lot of stalling so that the cost of putting someone to death becomes the more expensive route. I am still not convinced that it does cost more, however.
That’s the problem. We can’t “punish” someone who is an autonomous adult, because that would be morally wrong. “Punishment” as I concieve of it, implies bullying, torture and extreme deprivation, all of which fall under “cruel and unusual”.
All we can do is keep offenders in isolation, take away their privacy, assign them to community service or kill them. None of these is really punishment. Many inmates use their time in prison to rethink their choices in life, to take a critical look at themselves, find religion, or all of the above. Many do not. But ultimately, as adults with free will, the choice is up to them. We can’t force criminals to reform.
As for death, personally death isn’t a real bogeyman for me. The death penalty as a way of permanently imprisoning someone. A dead murderer is a murderer with a 0% recidivism rate.
The price of having a free society includes not being able to indulge our (justified) bloodlust and our vengeance.
In the end, punishment isn’t our department. If we want to have justice and freedom, we have to leave “punishment” up to dictators, mob bosses, overly strict parents and the Magical Sky Pixie.
Infuriating but true.
kung fu lola: And a wronfully-convicted executed person is a dead innocent person.
er, wrongfully-convicted, that is.
I never said I was in favour of the death penalty, Monty. IMO, when someone should die is a private matter between them and the MSP, and not any of The State’s business at all. Ever.
apparently neither my hint to woman nor my sarcastic tone to Sun did the trick.
once again, both of you made assertions, you were asked for proof, neither of you stepped up to the plate. Generally speaking, you don’t get to come back with “oh yea, well prove I’m wrong” . and you most certainly don’t get to say “well, gosh you’ve not given cites to prove I’m wrong, even though I never provided any evidence that I was right, so, since you’ve not proven me wrong, buh-bye”.
but in the intersest of time:
I put up links in a post on the linked page inthis thread. My very first post on page one of this thread referred (verbally) to having just done this same damned debate (referring to this linked thread), since there was a thread devoted to a child molesting priest killed in prison, gosh, who’d have thought to look there.
Sun you seem, in general to be long on assertions about prison guards, convicts, and well, damn near everything, but pretty short on proof. For example, your statements about guards may be true for those you personally know, but it isn’t true for every jurisdiction, specifically data about their shifts and work week.
I know lots of guards myself, ya know, but would never assume that the ones I specifically know are so representative that I could go onto a message board and post stuff about their working conditions, attitudes, pay, beliefs etc, and present it as universal among prison guards as a whole, such as you’ve done here.