The decline of skilled trades

Great Debates
21

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
I guess it depends on who “we” are. What generation are you? I’ve actually found that, in my generation (I’m 33; I have friends ranging from 25 to 39) work has been decoupled from that sort of judgment.

One friend has a masters in education. He decided he hated teaching, and went into HVAC instead. Worked there for several years, crawling through attics, etc., before he was able to purchase a bicycle shop–cycling is his big love–and now he sells and fixes bikes all day.

Another girl I know graduated from Vassar with an English degree. She’s a baker.

My wife went to college for costume design. She now works as a winemaker, which mostly involves her hefting 120-lb. barrels about, scrubbing gunk out of tanks, adding sacks of chemicals to wine, operating pumps and hoses, and fixing various cranky valves and fittings.

A number of my friends are carpenters. They do everything from creating custom cabinets, to designing sculptural mirrors, to building additions onto homes. Some have college degrees, some don’t.
[/QUOTE]
Yep.

22

[QUOTE=toadspittle]
As a sidetrack, I wonder how history will look at the building boom of recent years. As I see so many Mexican immigrants building the homes around me, I wonder if they’ll be remembered in 50-100 years the same way that we remember the Irish and the Chinese for building the railroads, or the Mohawks for walking the high steel in New York?
[/QUOTE]

I think you’re right on. Already the construction industry has seen the drywall trade almost completely taken over by Hispanic workers. To a lesser extent, roofers, bricklayers are making substantial inroads. The language barrier is much less an issue in these trades.

Some of the other trades have seen very little impact; Life Safety, Surveyors, HVAC, Electricians, Pipefitters etc are still dominated by Americans. This is partly due to the fact that those trades require 4+ years of classroom training or equivalent OTJ work. (and in almost all cases both) The learning curve for hanging sheetrock is fairly easy,vs wiring up a direct digital panel for fire and security, or digital controls for HVAC, sprinklers or lighting which are much steeper and take years of training.

Still, I think it will come, even if it takes 20 years. I’d venture that the drywall industry is 90+% Hispanic in many areas right now. Carpenters, roofers and bricklayers are growing rapidly.

I think in time construction will be known as a largely Hispanic occupation. (from many different countries)

23

I think the local college system has failed students.
They cater to their dreams of glamour jobs like master chef and game animator.
Then the poor kids end up as a hash cook or a data entry programmer.

24

I don’t understand the disdain some seem to hold for “skilled trades.” Around here, a teacher with five years experience is making $30K. A skilled construction worker is making $50K. I know machinists in California making $80K while the guys in the telephone call center down the street make $35K. Reporters at the small-town newspapers here are making significantly less than welders, and a good cabinetmaker can absolutely clean up.

If you can build a plumb, square, flat wall quickly and efficiently, you’re in SERIOUS demand!

25

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
I don’t understand the disdain some seem to hold for “skilled trades.” Around here, a teacher with five years experience is making $30K. A skilled construction worker is making $50K. I know machinists in California making $80K while the guys in the telephone call center down the street make $35K. Reporters at the small-town newspapers here are making significantly less than welders, and a good cabinetmaker can absolutely clean up.

If you can build a plumb, square, flat wall quickly and efficiently, you’re in SERIOUS demand!
[/QUOTE]

That’s what I mean- it’s insane to me that more people aren’t going into these trades. Take the pipefitters, for instance- it’s 5 years of classes twice a week and 40 hours/week of on the job training under a journeyman. You start off, with zero experience, making around $24,000 a year assuming you work no overtime. The pay seems to go up about $2 per year of experience, so I’d assume that someone who’d just gotten his journeyman’s papers would be making close to $50 grand a year. The union finds you jobs with contractors, and when the job is up you’ve got your unemployment.

I’d have to assume it’s laziness. Some of these jobs require serious manual labor (at least until you move higher up the food chain) and people don’t want to do it. They don’t want to get a little dirty, and take dead-end service industry jobs instead at call centers or in retail.

I do like the idea of different educational tracks where the kids who are good with their hands or enjoy that type of work are encouraged to go to trade and vocational schools, and those who are more “book smart” go off to college. I think it works out best for all involved instead of trying to force someone who’s not exactly scholarly to go to college “because s/he’ll never get a good job otherwise.” And don’t even get me started on the lowered standards at institutions of higher learning.

26

Some of the problem with these jobs is the fact that many of the jobs require hard physical labor in the outdoors in all kinds of weather. When you’re 20 or thirty, no problem, when you turn 40, 45 it gets a tougher. You don’t see very many 50 year old roofers. Sure, a few of them can get absorbed as foremen, but not one in ten. Then what happens to the rest? Most people doing that kind of work start looking for a way out fairly early. They know it’s a limited career.

27

[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
But if they moved somewhere else, they might be employable, wouldn’t you think?

That’s a commentary about Michigan, not about millwrights. I don’t know if you’ve noticed, but they’ve had problems there in the last few years.

My brother is pretty clearheaded about his career choice. If he has to move to work someday, he’ll do it.
[/QUOTE]

Hell no. The machine tool trade has been shipped to India and China. The unemployment in the business includes India,Ohio,Penn. and all heavy industry. It also includes engineeringl,programming ,electrical and automation. They wont let you follow the work to India. It is not allowed.

28

Yeah, I don’t notice any of these trades being particularly looked down on. My particular social group is a very DIY crowd. I don’t know how that scales to the national average.

29

[QUOTE=Honesty]
Germany has an exquisite system that addresses this. From what I gather, the school system bifurcates at around grade 8 where students go down trade tracks or college-prep track. I don’t know whether it’s true, but in any case, I think such a system should be implemented, even as a pilot program, in the United States. It ensures that high school graduates will be able to make a living doing something.
[/QUOTE]
Yes, this system has some advantages but at least as it exists now it has significant problems, too.[ul][li]The general decision is made very early in grades 4 to 6, depending on the state. After that changing tracks is possible but disproportionally hard.[/li][li]There is a strong correlation between social status of the parents and school track. While almost all parents want a good education for their children, often that means just “on paper not worse than their own, perhaps a bit better.” Academic and/or affluent parents will fight tooth and nail to get their children in the college-prep track and have the resources to do so (e.g. with private lessons.) Other families are more likely to choose or accept a trade-school track. For lower-income families the fact that children can be financially self-sufficient after 9-10 years as opposed to 12-13 plus college can also be a factor.[/li][li]In recent decades there has been a strong shift towards college education and the corresponding track. Because of this the track that used to be for an overwhelming majority of “normal people” now contains a disproportionate number of problem cases of all kinds.[/li][*]People from both tracks often compete for the same training or jobs and people with a college-prep degree are crowding people out of positions that used to be available with other degrees.[/ul]

30

[QUOTE=Bill Door]
Some of the problem with these jobs is the fact that many of the jobs require hard physical labor in the outdoors in all kinds of weather. When you’re 20 or thirty, no problem, when you turn 40, 45 it gets a tougher. You don’t see very many 50 year old roofers. Sure, a few of them can get absorbed as foremen, but not one in ten. Then what happens to the rest? Most people doing that kind of work start looking for a way out fairly early. They know it’s a limited career.
[/QUOTE]

This was the case for me. I did three years of welding in high school. I remember just before graduation my instructor pulled me into his office and told me there was a good job waiting for me at the local factory. I looked down at my filthy coveralls and burn scared arms and told him I wanted to give college a try. Welding was a great learning experince, but I can’t imagine doing it into middle age.

31

[QUOTE=Bill Door]
Some of the problem with these jobs is the fact that many of the jobs require hard physical labor in the outdoors in all kinds of weather. When you’re 20 or thirty, no problem, when you turn 40, 45 it gets a tougher. You don’t see very many 50 year old roofers. Sure, a few of them can get absorbed as foremen, but not one in ten. Then what happens to the rest? Most people doing that kind of work start looking for a way out fairly early. They know it’s a limited career.
[/QUOTE]

This is a good point to keep in mind. Everyone I know in the trades who’s getting on in years has experienced a certain amount of physical breakdown. And what are the job prospects for a 50-year-old roofer or drywall hanger whose knees are shot? Pretty poor, I’d imagine.

32

There was an article about the lack of skilled machinists in the local newspaper. Many brides want made-to-order wedding gowns but the top designers are seeing many of their machinists (older Greek and Italian women) retiring and there aren’t enough up-and-comers to fill the job.

Younger men and women don’t want to be machinists, they want to get an education and be the designer.

33

There is definitely a sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle snobbery when it comes to the trades. My mother even suffered from it when she learned that my husband was in school to become a carpenter. She really liked him, but thought that I was marrying down.

People tend to think that having a job in the trades means that you are a loser, and unable to get a better job. Until they need your services.

There is plenty of good money to be made in the trades. We live in a very nice 3 year old house on the lake, I’ve been able to stay home, and we have 5 kids and a Great Dane.

I work for him as well, but in all sorts of different capacities.

34

My nephew decided to go to a trade school to be a diesel machanic. With energy prices soaring, diesels might make a comeback.

35

[QUOTE=Khadaji]
My nephew decided to go to a trade school to be a diesel machanic. With energy prices soaring, diesels might make a comeback.
[/QUOTE]

I can’t imagine they’re going away. Even if half of the commuters stop driving cars because of the cost of gasoline, you’ll still need trucks to get stuff everywhere. I do hope that the states can get their act together and allow more turbodiesel cars on the road (I’m looking at YOU, New York…).

36

[QUOTE=Honesty]
Germany has an exquisite system that addresses this. From what I gather, the school system bifurcates at around grade 8 where students go down trade tracks or college-prep track. I don’t know whether it’s true, but in any case, I think such a system should be implemented, even as a pilot program, in the United States. It ensures that high school graduates will be able to make a living doing something.

  • Honesty
    [/QUOTE]

Spain has that too, but the whole… propaganda machine… works with the notion that your goal should be going to college, not being well-fed and happy doing a job that you love.

One of the lines I heard very often from my Dad when I was trying to figure out what did I want to do with myself was “that’s Trade School II, why would someone go to TS after graduating from HS?” Uh, well, dunnow but I figure TSII takes grads from both HS and TSI for some reason, y’know? Maybe some HS people figure they’re not interested in being an architect (college) but would love to be a draftsman! (TSII)

One of my personal crusades is convincing people who complain to me that their child is not interested in living the life the parent(s) mapped out to let the “children” do their own mapping.

Don’t get me started on what I think about Monkeysters of Edumacation who claim, microphone open, that “anybody who wants to be an engineer should be able to become one!” (in Spain engineering majors take the longest and are generally considered the hardest)

37

[QUOTE=Khadaji]
My nephew decided to go to a trade school to be a diesel machanic. With energy prices soaring, diesels might make a comeback.
[/QUOTE]

A friend of mine is building a waste grease recycling plant to make biodiesel here in Brooklyn. We’ll see how it goes once everything is under production, but he seemed to have pretty good luck in getting letters of intent from restaurants to supply the grease and local trucking companies to buy the diesel from him.

I think trades are a very valuable thing for people. The world doesn’t really need any more liberal arts majors, and those potential liberal arts majors don’t need to waste their time learning stuff they aren’t interested in. I do lament the lack of an apprenticeship culture here though. I did some internships right out of High School rather than college, and they were incredibly useful.

38

[QUOTE=mswas]
I do lament the lack of an apprenticeship culture here though. I did some internships right out of High School rather than college, and they were incredibly useful.
[/QUOTE]
Basic classroom training is important. That’s certainly true. But I agree with you about apprenticeships. Actually doing the job, or shadowing someone who explains it as they go, is a much faster way of learning a skill and perfecting it.

39

After my dad’s second marriage ended he quit his job as a stock broker (I’m not joking) and went back to working as a lineman. He has been going all over the country for the past couple years and is making really good money. Right now he is working in Chicago and they are working 12 hour days and on Saturday and Sunday.

40

[QUOTE=InvisibleWombat]
Basic classroom training is important. That’s certainly true. But I agree with you about apprenticeships. Actually doing the job, or shadowing someone who explains it as they go, is a much faster way of learning a skill and perfecting it.
[/QUOTE]

IMHO, that’s the way every career should be taught. You wouldn’t want to go to a doctor who’d never seen a patient, and only had textbook instruction, would you? Why should you go to an accountant who’s just graduated, and never dealt with such things in the real world? Or a lawyer? Or anything?

MHO, on the reasons why trades are in decline in the US:
[ul]
[li] Fouled up educational system. Schools simply don’t teach what they should be teaching. Everyone should have to take a shop class and home ec. class. After all, those are the kinds of things that all of us will have to deal with in our daily lives. How many of us are going to be worried about what kind of clothing Constantine wore to his cornination? The lack of exposure to those things means, that kids with the aptitude for such things will be less likely to know about them.[/li]
[li] Inability of the trades to adapt with the times. Yeah, a machine shop in the US can’t compete with $.12/hour labor in China or where ever, but the Chinese shop can’t get the blueprints for something and have the final product on your door 24 hours later. Shops also tend to hang on to equipment for far longer than they should. I’ve worked in shops that have had machines which were built **before ** WW II! Yeah, they still worked (after a fashion), but their energy costs were way higher than what a new machine would have. Simply upgrading the machines to new electric motors would have slashed their energy costs dramatically. Completely new machines would have an even lower cost per part overhead.[/li]
[li] Lack of promotion. In the case of machinists, people simply don’t know what they can do. Many of the other trades are in a similar boat. When I’ve told people that I’m a machinist, people often say to me, “What’s that?” or “Oh, so you work on car engines.” A savvy machine shop owner could make a fortune if they properly promoted themselves, not merely to industry, but to the general public as well! Charge next to nothing for small, little jobs (say decorative candleholders or what have you) and you’ll get people in your door. People, who in some cases will realize that they have a need for your services in other, higher paying areas. If I had a machine shop, one thing that I’d be doing (and I see no one doing this) is going to car shows, handing out business cards. Quite often, it’d be cheaper (in terms of time spent, at the very least) to have someone make you a part your car needs, than to track down one that’s for sale.[/li]
[li] Lack of good role models. At one point in time, there were lots of movies and TV shows which featured one or more characters who were a “hands on type” who made or used all kinds of fancy gadgets, etc. Now, those characters don’t exist anymore, having been replaced by a hero who simply mows everyone down with a machine gun or beats the crap out of them or does computer hacking. Where have all the Caractacus Potts’s, Q’s, MacGyver’s, Harry Broderick’s, and A-Team’s, who’d whip something up in a machine shop in order to save the day, gone? Heck, it seemed like a tradesman of some sort was a staple of nearly every 70’s action/adventure TV show.[/li]
[/ul]