the disabled golfer

Great Debates
41

Why exactly do you desire analogies for other sports? Oh well, here goes.

Tennis - I tire easily, so I need longer rests in between games/sets.
Or a match should consist of only 1 set, instead of best of 3 or 5.
Or my reflexes aren’t quick enough for grass, so they should pave over Wimbledon with a slower surface. Hey, they can still paint it green.

Racing - I don’t know. Could say the fatigue factor. The Indy 500 should be only 200 miles long, after which I need a nap.
On a less serious level, I’m afraid of high speed, so racers should be prohibited from going faster than 100 miles an hour.
Or I’m unusually tall/short/overweight, so they should reconfigure care to accomodate my body.
Or I need frequent breaks to use the bathroom.

Mayn’t a race enthusiast say, well, why don’t you find a race where you drive slower vehicles, that fit your body, for shorter distances? But just because you can’t compete in the Indy 500 the way we set it up, doesn’t mean we have to change the race to accomodate you.

Same way basketball players aren’t required to play in wheelchairs, just because some folks in wheelchairs would prefer to play in the NBA instead of their own leagues. The PGA could even out the field by saying everyone, able bodies or not, has to ride in carts. Why would that be a big thing. And if the PGA does not want to make this modest change, a court or Congress should require them to.

Why do wheelchair marathoners compete in a separate category? They are covering the exact same distance under the best of their ability? Why should they be prohibited from competing against the best runners, just because they lack full use of their legs. Shouldn’t they get the same prize money, appearance fees, performance incentives as the most famous elite runners?

How about for all sports, I can be competitive, but only if I take medications that are currently banned? I do not take them for their performance-enhancing effect, but to treat a real condition. Sure, alternatives exist, but this banned medication is the most effective in curing my ills.

Another point, in golf (as in many sports) tradition is very important. For whatever reason it is considered important that whoever wins the Masters’ in April will be walking down the same fairways as the great players of old. (Nevermind that they are using clubs and balls with space age technology, are ridiculously rich, etc.) I’m not sure this is a bad thing. If I wish to play golf differently, sayusing a baseball bat instead of a golfball, I am free to do that. But not in an official competition. If I wish to start my own league, fine.

Similarly, there are competition venues available to differently abled golfers. They make seat adapters that attach onto golf carts so people can swing essentially while seated. Heck, I’ve even heard of facilities and equipment and organizations to enable blind people to play. But should the rules be changed to allow blind people to compet on the PGA tour?

Who should get to say what is an what is not an integral part of the game? The activity’s governing body, or a court with no particular interest or familiarity with the sport. I think one of the justices commented yesterday, all sport rules can appear silly if you care to view them
that way.

Final observation, is anyone else at all surprised this debate has not engendered more interest? Did a search on Casey Martin’s name, and turned up no previous threads. Strikes me as curious. Hey, how about this. Resolved: Casey Martin should be banned from golfing because he is a homosexual atheist and he voted for Bush! We haven’t discussed anything like that for some time!

42

** I didn’t think the baseball analogies were applicable for reasons stated above, and I was trying hard to see what kind of relationship (legally) exists between the PGA and it’s players. Thanks for humoring me.

I think your first Tennis one is the closest. But, you see, I could see where that might be ok - There are conditions where one tires easily, but other than that, they’re fine, and since giving the one person a longer break would also mean that you’d give the other a longer break too, it wouldn’t necesarily put either at a disadvantage.

But, tennis does have one specific difference from golf in that instead of group competition, it’s head to head. So that wouldn’t necessarily be a close enough analogy.

How about this: Race car driver - has difficulty getting out of a seated position, needs a specially designed car with an ‘ejector seat’ (ok, work with me here) in order to exit the vehicle. Now, this would be non standard equipment on the vehicle, and some other drivers may quarrel that jumping in and out of the vehicle is an intricate part of being a race car driver, and therefore the special adaptation shouldn’t be allowed. How about that? This seat would merely put this driver at the same place as the others, that it wouldn’t take him 20 minutes to exit the car.

**

This is an interesting one and potentially on target as well. I’ll have to think about it some more.

Yes, I find it surprising (and consider, too, that I’m here - hell, I don’t golf, had never even heard of this guy before) by the way, I searched the PGA site and couldn’t get any of the information that I’d requested here - but I did try. Hey- he voted for Bush??? let’s cane him! (insert appropriate smilie here)

[hijack] Hey Dinsdale, what ever happened about that promotion? [/hijack]

43

Ugh, golf has little to nothing to do with walking! if it did then there would ne NO carts anywhere. Martin can keep up hitting the ball and putting with the rest of the PGA players. If you want better sports analogies then what if a sprinnter only had one arm yet could beat the world record time even though he can’t use the blocks like everyone else? you gonna not let him run?

If the PGA wanted to keep all of its traditions then how come they don’t still use the old crap balls that cut easy and have to be replaced every couple of holes? why not use wooden clubs instead of metal? why not have sheep on the course? The senior PGA can use carts and it hasn’t affected game play one bit. Hale Irwin, to the best of my knowledge, doesn’t use a cart and for a couple of years was one of the best players on the SPGA. Why don’t you see more carts in the SPGA cause it doesn’t make that much of a difference.

Re: the blind golfer, that would be intersting to see happen, the caddy does a lot of the work anyway with picking clubs, helping line up putts so there would be no difference wounder how many people would cry out over THAT if a blind golfer won a tournament.

44

Ugh, golf has little to nothing to do with walking! if it did then there would ne NO carts anywhere. Martin can keep up hitting the ball and putting with the rest of the PGA players. If you want better sports analogies then what if a sprinnter only had one arm yet could beat the world record time even though he can’t use the blocks like everyone else? you gonna not let him run?

If the PGA wanted to keep all of its traditions then how come they don’t still use the old crap balls that cut easy and have to be replaced every couple of holes? why not use wooden clubs instead of metal? why not have sheep on the course? The senior PGA can use carts and it hasn’t affected game play one bit. Hale Irwin, to the best of my knowledge, doesn’t use a cart and for a couple of years was one of the best players on the SPGA. Why don’t you see more carts in the SPGA cause it doesn’t make that much of a difference.

Re: the blind golfer, that would be intersting to see happen, the caddy does a lot of the work anyway with picking clubs, helping line up putts so there would be no difference wounder how many people would cry out over THAT if a blind golfer won a tournament.

45

Let’s see if I can sum up the debate so far. We have established that none of us few who are interested in this topic has a clue about the structure of the PGA or USGA, or the legal nature of these organizations’ relationships with professional golfers. (Don’t get down on yourself, wring. I’ve golfed for 30 years, and am a lawyer who deals with an incredibly opaque federal act and regulations, and much of official golf speak is unintelligible to me!) We have spent considerable effort exploring possible analogous situations in other sports, and have discussed whether, in our opinions, walking is integral part of game. In doing so, we have addressed specific provisions of the ADA and other employment law in only a most general and anecdotal fashion.

Please allow me to suggest that this is not the only way we need to approach this situation.

To this point, we have successfully avoided any mention of whether this is a situation we believe the ADA SHOULD address. Can we not simply debate whether federal intervention is appropriate to allow differently abled individuals from participating in competitive professional sports?

If anyone wishes to debate this, I will offer my position - NO. It is too bad Casey Martin’s vascular disorder prevents him from competing on the pro tour. Same way it is too bad my general clutziness prevents me from being a pro athlete of any kind. And my goofy mug prevents me from being a movie star. Too fucking bad. Life ain’t fair. Whether or not some guy with a bum leg can play pro golf is so far down on my list of priorities, I’m not sure it is even visible.

Moreover, I suggest it is possible for any of us to point out that essentially ANY rule of ANY sport can be viewed as silly, unneccesary, or otherwise not an integral part of the game. This is not an exercise that tremendously appeals to me, but don’t let me stop you guys from continuing it should you so desire. Seems more like an MPSIMS thread than a GD.

But who should be responsible for establishing rules of competiton, and what level of review should they be afforded? It seems to me that participating in a certain sport as a pro is, in large part, a voluntary activity. People who are not quite good enough to compete as pros under the existing rules of a particular sport are not a class of people I desire my government to spend too much time and effort on, in a universe of limited resources. And so long as the rules do not discriminate against certain suspect classes, I urge quite deferential review.

46

**
Not to worry, but thanks :smiley:

Yes, it does seem that none of us are versed in the appropriate law/regulations. I’m focused on if the relationship is more of an employer/contractor vs. game show/lottery winner kind of thing.

To me, if the legal relationship is employer/contractor, then EOE/ADA etc apply. And from what little I’ve been able to see, the relationship is closer to employer/contractor than anything else. and so the ADA would be the appropriate venue for this.

I’m not locked into that however, so should some one show some evidence that it’s not employer/employee/contractor type of thing, then I’d be willing to concede the point. (or game/set/match to keep the sports illustration involved)

**

you forgot to add the disclaimer “an otherwise competitive player”. This should keep the argument framed in the current situation. No one is claiming that he isn’t able (quite well) to hit the ball where it needs to go and whatever else the golfer does - just that he’s not able to walk w/o risking death (apparently -the phrase that leaped out at me was something about the risk of his lower leg exploding from the pools of collected blood). I’d think, for example, a golfer who needed a pace maker would be allowed to have one, ditto glasses etc. I guess I’m seeing the cart as something that allows this person, whose skill level is analogous to the other players, but who has physical restraints that most of them don’t have, to compete on the skill level.

But, since I’m neither a golfer nor a lawyer, I won’t be submitting my amicus curiae brief real soon.

47

No idea how to characterize the employer/employee-type interest in golf. Personally, I tend to view it more as a casino/lottery type situation. The course and the organization provide the venue wherein these guys can compete, but none of them is guaranteed any particular payout. It is guaranteed, however, that someone will win. Kind of like a raffle. If I buy a ticket, I am not the raffle sponsor’s employee.

What was the relationship between the TV network/production company and the folk on “Survivor?” Should they have had to make the island wheelchair (or golf cart) accessible?

Further complicating things is my understanding that in most tournaments, a third party ponies up the prize money. So, in the “Advil Western Open,” who writes the check the golfer gets? Advil, or the PGA? I don’t know. Does it matter for this discussion?

As far as your suggestion of pacemaker/glasses. I think there is a continuum here, and those are distinguishable at one end of that continuum. The golfer’s use of a cart is somewhere between a guy wearing a pacemaker/glasses on one end, and me playing in the NFL from inside a tank on the other. A pacemaker/glasses are contained entirely in or on the competitor’s person. Is that a good point to stop along the continuum? I think it may be.

You previously mentioned a chair lift in race cars. However, race cars are subject to stringent weight/size/fuel restrictions. How do you accomodate such a lift and make the car remain competitive? If the lift adds weight, increases wind resistance, does the driver get additional engine/fuel/tire accomodations to make him remain competitive? And an alternative would be to have some kind of external winch to lift him in an out of the car.

And I’m not sure about your proposed “otherwise competitive competitor” qualification. Hell, any one of us would “otherwise [be] competitive” at any number of endeavors if there were certain things different about us.

To me, it is one thing to say airlines should not discriminate against folk who fall short of their definition of “beauty.” It is another thing to say Hollywood movies cannot apply such criteria. I have much more sympathy for an unconventionally attractive individual who is unable to get a job as a flight attendant (or in many other industries) due to their appearance. I have less sympathy for this individual should they bemoan their inability to be a super movie star instead of an extra in zombie flicks.

Similarly to Casey Martin. Really too bad you have a bum leg. Not get out of the courts and get a real job like the rest of us desk-jockey schmucks. You can always pick up a few bucks on the side at the local club where they will let you use a cart.

If Martin successfully sues under the ADA, what does this case say about what we want from our government?

48

Second to last par should read “Now get out…”

49

I don’t see what a pacemaker/galsses has to do with anything, unless you’re not gonna let someone like a football player play because he doesn’t/can’t wear contacts. Or unless a golfer got a pacemaker and he couldn’t walk the whole course. It would be intersting to see what the PGA would do if someone like Woods needed a cart, would they really say sorry we’re not gonna let you? As for the tank, isn’t that what the XFL is gonna do? :wink:

What fool would play an X-Pro at the local club? as for making money, I’m gonna figure out how much a pro really nets if he’s at the bottom end, the end that MOST pros really are. to keep your card you need to make 200K a year, give or take a little. 50K goes to taxes, another 20K goes to your caddy, that leaves 130 left for you.

At 50-60 bucks a night for the 33 weeks in a hotel that’s 10-15K.

another 50 or so a day for food that’s another 12K

another 15K for gas/car/insurance/other travel

That’s another 42K so that’s 90K left, I guess that’s a little bit more than what I thought. Then again if you’re not making that much you can lose money being on the tour. I don’t know how much Martin made, but it wasn’t enough to keep his card.

I agree, the gov probably shouldn’t be in on this, though I still think that carts don’t change the game much if any.

at least that typo worked out for this GD! :smiley:

50

The golfer’s request is reasonable, especially given the specifics of his condition. It grants him no special advantage. The only real beef I see here is the visibility. If he could have solved his problem with a special leg brace, invisible under his pants, would the PGA have whined, you think?

In baseball it’s ‘traditional’ for a batter to walk unassisted from the dugout to the on-deck circle and then to the plate. What if, say, Kirk Gibson in the '88 World Series, Game 1, had used a crutch (which he desperately needed for his blown ankle) to get to the plate? He was perfectly capable of standing at the plate and winning the game with a homer, which he did. Would the A’s have cried foul? Probably a little, at least.

However. Would that have been any different from, say, in the same sport, a relief pitcher being transported to the mound in a go-cart (which I’ve seen countless times, though they walk also).

One other issue that hasn’t been mentioned is the ‘play with pain’ mentality in pro sports. My example of Gibson is a good one - he played most of that season with his injury and still won the MVP. I think a lot of golfers take pride in walking the entire course day after day under the no-cart rule. Their resentment to this is understandable. However, I don’t think they have to deal with a severe leg injury - they might think otherwise if they had his condition.

Here’s a good one - what if Tiger Woods had this condition and asked for a cart? Do you think the PGA would turn him down?

51

Don’t suspect so, any more than if they’d borrowed the $ from a bank or gotten a grant to do it.

** Agree that it’s a continuum, but disagree on the point to stop. What about a cane? that’s not contained on or in the person, completely external. Crutches? same thing.

The comment about ‘otherwise competitive’ is to keep out the statements like “well, for anyone if everything was changed, then it’d be different” - Independant of his disability, he has the skills necessary to play the game well. I certainly don’t, nor do most people. But with this adaptation, he does. See, I’m still talking like an employer.

** Interesting that you should bring this up - remember (I think it was Aaron Spelling) the producer who was sucessfully sued for discharging an actress 'cause she was pregnant and her role called for being a sex kitten? I believe the ADA was at least partially used there.

It says we want to be assured that our employers cannot discharge us simply because to make accomondations for our disability, it might make them move an inch. :smiley:

52

The best sports analogy would probably be the PBA (Professional Bowlers Association). In order to be a member, you must have a minimum average,pay dues and go to school. You will then be able to enter regional events. If you do well enough there , you can enter national events ( the guys on TV).The pros are neither employees nor independent contractors. They enter the tournaments they choose to, pay the entry fee and any other expenses,and win money only if they place high enough. There is no guaranteed income. I’m not certain about the PBA, but in amateur (defined in bowling as no PBA members) tournament associations, winnings are reported on the same 1099 used for gambling winnings.

53

I know I am jumping in kind of late here, but I did want to clear up the confusion regarding the PGA changing their rules. Their rule for the PGA Tour has always been no carts (or at least since carts became a possibility). They did change the rules for the qualifying matches when they found out Casey Martin would be attempting to qualify (I don’t know if he had officially entered yet or not). Previously, golfers could use a cart for the entire qualifying tournament, they changed the rule to disallow carts on the last part.

As for those who claim walking is not an integral part of golf, I would have to disagree. I believe the fatigue of walking a full round (especially for four straight days) would possibly affect a golfer’s performance. From what I have read, the mental game is what really separates the top professionals from top amateurs and lesser professionals, and I see how the fatigue from walking would affect concentration. In Casey Martin’s case he would probably get just as fatigued from having to get in and out of the cart and do the walking that was required, but I really do believe the rules should be the same for everyone in a competition and if that leaves some people out, well those are the breaks.

54

Holy shit! We get a first time poster to keep this creaky thread alive. Welcome, Mental one!

Let’s look at bowling. I can roll the ball really well, but can’t walk to the line. Can I compete from a chair? Why or why not.

Why is it not valid to say that, if the ADA is being applied to professional atheletes, it is overbroad?

And still, no one has bitten on my medication question.

55

I don’t think it’s the ADA itself that’s overbroad, but the 9th circuit’s interpretation of “public accomodation” (and I don’t think SCOTUS is going to agree with it).While the course itself is a public accomodation, that doesn’t mean that either the PGA or a particular tournament is.I think they went overboard in deciding that since walking is not an integral part of golf,it is also not an integral part of PGA competition at that level, and that Martin endured as much fatigue from his limited walking as others do from walking the whole course.He may experience more than some, he may experience less than some- I just don’t think it’s possible to quantify fatigue in that way. However, I do think the PGA would be in a better position if there was an outright ban on carts,rather than only in some rounds.